Evidence of meeting #9 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 40th Parliament, 3rd session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was service.
A recording is available from Parliament.
President, Association of Canadian Financial Officers
I'm not quite sure I understood the question with this translation. I'm sorry.
Bloc
Richard Nadeau Bloc Gatineau, QC
I understand.
Will job losses among financial officers cause disruption in some departments? If so, which ones?
President, Association of Canadian Financial Officers
I'm not sure what the departments would be. The real issue is when you displace financial officers and you don't fill those vacancies, as now, you're running the risk of a couple of things. One is you're running risks of bad choices in terms of financial decisions, and another is you're also running the risks in terms of exposure to folks taking liberties and not having the ability to hold them accountable.
President, Association of Canadian Financial Officers
May I...?
What happens in those situations is that if you look at the vulnerability, the types of moneys that could be displaced or could be used inappropriately, those normally end up being significantly more than the investment of having a financial officer there. That's money that now won't serve Canadians, for that most part. So if moneys are being mismanaged, they're not getting to the Canadians--
Bloc
Richard Nadeau Bloc Gatineau, QC
I am sorry, Mr. Isaacs, but I only have five minutes, and the meeting will be ending soon.
Mr. Gordon, Mr. Corbett, there was a question earlier about Rae days. And yet, it was under Bob Rae's NDP government in Ontario that an investment fund—the Teachers' Pension Fund—was transferred from the government to the teachers. We know that Mike Harris tried to get his hands on the fund in order to dip into it. We saw that with Paul Martin, who basically stole money from the pension fund. We see this in the private sector as well, with the paper mills, for example. Nowadays, it is becoming a common practice to dip into workers' pension funds, which makes them poorer, all in an attempt to save a company that adjusted poorly to a changing environment.
Is that not something you would consider presenting as a demand—I am just asking the question—namely, that government employees be given control over their pension fund? That way, the federal government could not get its hands on it, the way it did with employment insurance. It amounts to systematically stealing money from the unemployed and, in your case, from workers and the people who represent you. Would that not be one possible solution?
In terms of the Ontario Teachers' Pension Fund, that I contributed to, it works very well because it is managed by the people who will ultimately be drawing on those funds and who invest their money in it. The government will not be able to dip into it to do what it pleases with the money.
Do you think that would be one way of dispelling fears that the money in the pension fund could disappear?
I would ask Mr. Poirier, Mr. Gordon and Mr. Corbett to respond quickly, because my five minutes are almost up.
Go ahead, Mr. Poirier, since you understand French.
President, Canadian Association of Professional Employees
At the present time, two different views are being expressed. The C.D. Howe Institute and members of that group are saying that our federal pension system is threatened, and yet the Chief Actuary for Canada is saying that the system is sound. It cannot be both black and white at the same time. Someone has to tell us the truth.
President, Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada
It's a sound pension plan, and we should be bringing the level of pensions up for Canadians generally. This is a mode we should aspire to. So if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
National President, Executive Office, Public Service Alliance of Canada
As my colleague has said, the whole thing is that the pension plan is sound. The workers pay into the pension plan. It's deferred salary. I think the government already has enough of the money--the $30 billion they stole. That issue will be in court on Monday, and hopefully we'll get it back.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Yasmin Ratansi
Thank you.
We'll now go to the last question, from Mr. Warkentin, before the bells ring.
Conservative
Chris Warkentin Conservative Peace River, AB
Thank you, Madam Chair. I appreciate that.
This afternoon we've spoken a lot about hypothetical situations and possibilities that might be a result of the decisions that were outlined within the budget. I certainly appreciate your perspectives, assurances, and concerns relating to those hypothetical situations, but I think it's important that we focus on something a little bit different from what we've spoken about. That's the issue of the demographics and how those challenges are going to present themselves. How will that impact the civil service as far as employment is concerned, but also in terms of the services that civil servants will be requested to undertake?
Right now my understanding is that for every retired person there are 15 people in the workforce. Within the next couple of decades we're going to see those numbers change to approximately three people in the workforce for every retired person. Those numbers are staggering and something we all have to address. It's incumbent upon governments, the civil service, the private sector, and the general population of the country to consider them.
Mr. Gordon, you said in quotations in your testimony that we're asking people to do more with less. I think that's the definition of productivity. All Canadians are concerned about how we're going to do more with fewer resources. We've heard testimony from the Clerk of the Privy Council about some of the things the government is doing to try to increase productivity. It isn't a result of people being lazy or not doing their jobs; there are systems that need to be replaced. There's back-office work that needs to be done. Relationships need to be built between departments to try to reduce that.
In an effort to be constructive and try to address this mounting issue of the impending demographic shift and the necessity that we'll all need to become more productive in our society, do you have any suggestions where the government can actually do that? Where can the civil service do more with less? We've heard it suggested by different unions at different times on different issues that we need new programs, such as the payroll system overhaul that needs to be done. Are you hearing about other things like that from your members that would start the process of the government in whole doing more with less, or just doing more with the resources that could be allocated to those efforts?
National President, Executive Office, Public Service Alliance of Canada
In 2008 the public service survey was done. In that survey, 68% of people said that the quality of the work done suffered in the public service because of lack of resources--fewer people, fewer resources. We have a budget that's been brought down that will make reductions in departmental budgets--
Conservative
Chris Warkentin Conservative Peace River, AB
Mr. Gordon, I want to concentrate on suggestions. If you don't have any, maybe the other gentlemen have suggestions as to how we can actually get...because my time is very short.
National President, Executive Office, Public Service Alliance of Canada
Okay. You're talking about the payroll issue, and that will help solve that. In Shediac, New Brunswick, the benefits people are consolidating all of the work there, so that's the only place you will have to go for information about your pension plan. So departments won't have to do that. That's already up and running, for the most part.
Conservative
Chris Warkentin Conservative Peace River, AB
So those are the types of things you would encourage to continue.
National President, Executive Office, Public Service Alliance of Canada
Absolutely.
Conservative
President, Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada
There's some information that the consolidation of 473 positions across departments could result in the work being done by under 30 workers--those types of things. What strikes me the most about this is that the clerk comes in and talks about this stuff, but where is the consultation beforehand? We'll never get there without consulting with the bargaining units.
Conservative
Chris Warkentin Conservative Peace River, AB
I'm looking for suggestions. This may be construed as being part of the consultations, because I know there are consultations. A deputy minister has been appointed for those consultations and that work in this coming year.
Are there other suggestions?
President, Association of Canadian Financial Officers
You may want to look at the types of financial systems being run by the government. There are anywhere from three to five different financial systems. You may want to look at what that presents in terms of challenges: the reporting requirements and the type of information you're getting from those various systems. I would suggest there are probably savings there as well.
Conservative
Chris Warkentin Conservative Peace River, AB
Mr. Isaacs, we're not going to have time, and I don't want to put any burden on you. But can you provide a document on that, or is there any report? Those are the types of suggestions that I think our committee would be very interested in. Can you give us some feedback? Maybe I can meet with you after so we can talk.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Yasmin Ratansi
Mr. Warkentin is right. We're looking at the demographics and the cuts. If there's a freeze on the envelope, a demographic shift, and attrition, if you have any documents to help us with the study we'd appreciate them.
The bells have started ringing. I'd like to thank you all for being here to help us out with our committee business. I appreciate the time and effort you have put in and the work you're doing.
Thank you very much, and have a good evening.