Evidence of meeting #33 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was billion.
A recording is available from Parliament.
5:25 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Deputy Receiver General for Canada, Department of Public Works and Government Services
So the numbers will go up and down because I have a lot of projects. That's what happens. I'm going to be given money, and then certain projects will just be over with and there will be minuses. So I'm going to get minuses and pluses.
5:25 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Deputy Receiver General for Canada, Department of Public Works and Government Services
The other thing I would say briefly, Mr. Chairman, is that my world is further compounded by the fact that we have revenue generation. This year, 57% of my budget is not fixed. As we are a service provider, it's variable as a result of demand coming from departments.
So I can give you a best estimate as to what the volume of work will be, based on the past, but it will probably not materialize. I'm a bit like a business for 60% of my budget, but that's the challenge we have, in part.
5:25 p.m.
NDP
The Chair NDP Pat Martin
Thank you, Deputy Minister.
We have one five-minute round left for the opposition.
Mathieu Ravignat.
5:25 p.m.
NDP
Mathieu Ravignat NDP Pontiac, QC
I would like to come back to the issue of the contract awarded to Royal LePage. You've confirmed that they were awarded the contract. I've read several articles that talk about bribes and the somewhat problematic involvement of certain senior public servants in events sponsored by Royal LePage.
What are you doing right now to ensure that this type of situation doesn't happen again? It's an important matter. We're talking about the appearance of a conflict of interest.
5:25 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Deputy Receiver General for Canada, Department of Public Works and Government Services
First, there are mechanisms outside my department, including public disclosure, and everyone can use them.
Second, our department has an ethics program that I feel is very serious. If memory serves, we had a great evaluation from the Treasury Board about...
5:25 p.m.
NDP
Mathieu Ravignat NDP Pontiac, QC
It might be serious, but it hasn't done a very good job in this case.
5:25 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Deputy Receiver General for Canada, Department of Public Works and Government Services
I would like to talk about the period from when I started in the department until now. It has been almost five years. Those events started before that, and in addition, they are before the courts. So that makes it even more difficult to comment.
Whatever the case may be, I would like to point out that the department has measures in place, including the ethics program, and that it has a rather unique oversight group. This group is also responsible for conducting investigations if issues come up with some contracts, for example.
Mr. Ring will be able to tell you more but, as you were able to see with our national shipbuilding procurement strategy, we have a fairness monitor. He only reviews our major procurement programs, not all of them, and he is there for every step of the process. In addition, we have third parties that do a lot of reviews.
I feel that, in our department, we have a rather comprehensive program to ensure that people act in a compliant fashion.
5:30 p.m.
NDP
Mathieu Ravignat NDP Pontiac, QC
I would now like to talk about the people from SNC-Lavalin, who are masters of overbilling. And I am not exaggerating. In 2010, for example, there was talk of a doorbell for $1,000, two plants for $2,000 and lights for $5,266.
Does the department have safeguards against that type of foolish spending?
5:30 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Deputy Receiver General for Canada, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Mr. Chair, members of the committee, we have conducted studies and we have hired a third party that looked over those bills and is doing additional work. Amounts were reimbursed because they did not comply with the provisions of the contract. That has all been posted on our site. So the members of the committee can consult the reports and see the amounts that have been reimbursed. We have learned from that experience.
We are a continuous learning organization. I believe in that fundamentally.
We have implemented an action plan with over 30 or 40 measures. Some are specific and some are more general. Finally, we have increased resources for the overall management of contracts. So not only do we have an action plan, but we are also overseeing the management of contracts more consistently. That is the “basket of measures” that we have implemented.
5:30 p.m.
NDP
Mathieu Ravignat NDP Pontiac, QC
I would like to talk about supply contracts between Public Works Canada and small and medium businesses.
In our study on the Office of Small and Medium Enterprises, we have often heard witnesses say that it was extremely difficult to have access to supply contracts from Public Works if you were a small, medium or micro-enterprise. They also said that only large businesses get the contracts. We are obviously talking about SNC-Lavalin and Royal LePage, which are good examples.
What are you actively doing in your department to ensure there is more diversity and that small and medium enterprises are included in contracts?
5:30 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Deputy Receiver General for Canada, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Thank you for your question.
I am going to give you a short answer with two parts. First, I am going to mention the numbers, which are very important. In any given year, we have between 55,000 and 60,000 transactions, whose total value amounts to around $17 billion. And 40% of that goes to small enterprises. In the United States—and correct me if I am wrong, Tom—they have a carve-out of 20 to 23%.
5:30 p.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Acquisitions Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services
That's right.
5:30 p.m.
NDP
Mathieu Ravignat NDP Pontiac, QC
How many employees do you need to say that it is a small or medium enterprise?
5:30 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Deputy Receiver General for Canada, Department of Public Works and Government Services
We use Industry Canada's definition. You need fewer than 500 employees.
5:30 p.m.
NDP
Mathieu Ravignat NDP Pontiac, QC
Yes. I am sure we all agree that, in reality, most small and medium enterprises in the country don't have 500 people.
5:30 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Deputy Receiver General for Canada, Department of Public Works and Government Services
I have to say that I don't have the number of businesses with 500 employees. But I think that there are quite a few businesses that are rather small in Canada. I might be wrong. We could find that information.
5:30 p.m.
NDP
The Chair NDP Pat Martin
I'm sorry, you're both well over time. I'm going to have to cut it off.
I don't know what the will of the committee is. We're now getting close to shut-off time. To round it out and make it a full round of questioning, we could give the Conservatives one more and the Liberals one more, if we're interested in staying for another 10 minutes—providing our witnesses are available to stay.
Are you willing to stay for another 10 minutes, seeing as we were kind of cheated out of the opportunity for some of our rounds of questioning?
Mr. Guimont, speaking on behalf of your group...?
5:35 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Deputy Receiver General for Canada, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Absolutely. I'll gladly do so.
5:35 p.m.
Conservative
Mike Wallace Conservative Burlington, ON
Perhaps we can shorten the rounds and make them three minutes each.
5:35 p.m.
NDP
The Chair NDP Pat Martin
You used up your three minutes with your extra questioning in the last round.
5:35 p.m.
Conservative