Government Operations Committee on Oct. 2nd, 2012

[Ron Cannan, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

There are no efficiencies there.

[John McBain]

As I said earlier, part of the overall management regime is the accountability of the deputy head to deliver the program. For the vast majority of departments, real property or buildings are a means to delivering their programs; they're not core to what they do.

How the department uses those buildings to achieve its program objectives is part of its accountability. If you took that out and put it somewhere else, you then mix the accountabilities. They're going to say “I need those buildings to delivery my program. I'm no longer in control of them.”

[Ron Cannan, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

So there are economies of scale to a degree, but accountability for those economies of scale becomes too big sometimes to even become efficient.

[John McBain]

I would argue that it's difficult to set priorities. If you have one large organization, setting priorities becomes a greater challenge.

[Ron Cannan, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

I greatly appreciate the clarification.

Mr. Munro, there has been talk about solar and wind, but no discussion about geothermal. I come from the Okanagan, and we've had Jeff Keen, the solar chap, out to the Okanagan a couple of times. We have 2,000-plus hours of sunlight, so there have been discussions about solar. We also have UBC Okanagan, which is a net zero campus for carbon emissions, using geothermal.

Is there consideration of geothermal for existing buildings, and for retrofitting as well?

[Geoff Munro]

Geothermal takes a number of different forms.

There's the true geothermal, which I think you're talking about, where you actually use the heat from below the ground as your heat source.

[Ron Cannan, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Correct.

[Geoff Munro]

There's also the storage of heat in the ground, which may be obtained in other ways. That's where I was talking about boreholes in Hamilton. There's another perfect example in southern Alberta, in the Okotoks community.

We are looking at all energy sources, from the investigative, the scientific, perspective, as to what's available and the cost effectiveness. If you take a look at a map of Canada, the geothermal resources tend to reside in the area of the country you're talking about; it's not ubiquitous across the country. As a matter of fact, it sort of takes a sweep, going up the western side of the country through the Rockies and in that area.

There is not a simple solution or a one-size-fits-all. The depth to which you would need to drill to obtain the kind of heat that would make it cost effective...it would be lost in the drilling.

[Ron Cannan, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Definitely. We're the second-largest land mass in the world, so there are definitely different geographic conditions for building.

Taking into consideration NRCan's role in reducing greenhouse gas emissions in government buildings, do we also play a leadership role in the private sector? Do you work with architecture firms, engineering firms, for example, to support as prototypes some of the LEED gold buildings, to exemplify what can be done and to help the private sector as well?

[Geoff Munro]

I have two responses, if I may.

The first is to clarify that NRCan does not have responsibility for government buildings beyond those that we occupy and/or own. However, we work very closely with PWGSC and others. We have partnerships with DND, with Environment Canada, and others, to try to use the energy expertise that we have to let them apply the same kinds of program improvements to their responsibilities. Our mandate remains within the mandate of the department and its own facilities.

In terms of demonstrating best cases, both internally and externally, to the government, we do, absolutely. As we develop an understanding around the use of a given technology as it reaches market potential, as it reaches the potential to compete with existing forms of energy, etc., we try to make that information available to other energy companies, engineering firms, etc., right across the country.

[Ron Cannan, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Thank you.

I just have time for one quick question.

The government is investing hundreds of millions of dollars in the parliamentary precinct, and I've seen some of the historic buildings and the advantages. We have access to our windows, which are basically a single-pane window, but we get fresh air, so that's the trade-off: the fresh air versus the sealed-in, recirculated air.

Have you looked at the precinct here and the numbers, what we're at right now, and once it's completed what kinds of savings and energy efficiencies and greenhouse gas emission reductions there will be?

[John McBain]

I spoke with my colleague Pierre-Marc Mongeau, who is the assistant deputy minister for the parliamentary precinct, before appearing here today and I asked him what the plans are.

He assures me that the rehabilitation of the blocks of Parliament will target BOMA BESt practice in terms of operations, and they are targeting Green Globe for the renovation of these buildings. He is also undertaking energy audits on all the buildings that comprise the precinct, not just those on the Hill, but also La Promenade and other buildings that are used to support the functions of Parliament.

I can't give you the specific numbers that are targeted, but as I said, we could come back to the committee with more details if you're interested in that amount.

[Ron Cannan, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

That's very good. Thank you.

[The Chair, NDP, Pat Martin]

Thank you, Ron.

John, you had a point. Do you want to add to Mr. Munro's comments?

[John McBain]

That was dealt with by Caroline. I wanted to answer your question on leadership.

While we don't have a central agency function, as PWGSC we take our presence seriously in terms of the leadership we provide. The Jean Canfield Building that I referred to in Charlottetown, candidly, was a challenging tender. It was the first time LEED gold had been attempted, and it was a challenging initiative to tender that building and get it constructed, but we're pleased to see that leadership in terms of demonstrating that federal commitment.

[The Chair, NDP, Pat Martin]

Thank you very much, John.

Thank you, Ron, for your questions.

That concludes our second round of questioning. Denis Blanchette has asked for the indulgence of the committee for one minute to ask one specific question.

Denis.

[Denis Blanchette, NDP, Louis-Hébert, QC]

Thank you very much.

You have begun modifying buildings, and you are trying to meet the LEED standard. What would you need in your ideal tool box to reach your objectives more efficiently?

[John McBain]

Certainly, for us, it's a question of looking at the overall plan for our assets, and having a longer planning horizon would always allow us to do that better, so knowing the longevity of programs, knowing what plans are farther downstream, would allow us to take a stronger position with respect to our buildings. At the same time, we must acknowledge that our clients need to have agility in delivering government programs, so that's always the trade-off between our knowing whether we have a 10- or a 15-year use for a building, and therefore appropriate investments, versus clients who may say they've got a program that's going to run five years, and they need to get two years in before they know it's going to continue.

That's the trade-off: finding that right balance between program need to support government operations and the investments we need to make in our assets.

[The Chair, NDP, Pat Martin]

Thank you to all the guests for a very useful and very interesting session. It gives us lots to chew on, and certainly it's self-evident that this is a pluralistic issue of great interest to us as we move forward. I'm sure one or both of your agencies will be invited back in the context of the study.

Thank you very much to the witnesses.

[John McCallum, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

I don't have a question, but before you end the meeting, I would like to propose my motion to ask the national fighter jet secretariat to come to the committee, if I may.

[The Chair, NDP, Pat Martin]

I would like to thank our witnesses for their time and finish that section of the meeting.

Thank you, again, John, Geoff, Caroline, and Carol, for being here today. You're excused.

John, are you moving your motion now?

[John McCallum, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

I would like to, if I may.

[The Chair, NDP, Pat Martin]

That's in order. So moved.

[Mike Wallace, Conservative, Burlington, ON]

Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, NDP, Pat Martin]

Go ahead, Mike.