My point on this is that from the value-for-money assessments that are produced, it's impossible to tell. They are not transparent. They don't provide the key information that is required. They hide debt that is going to be paid in many future years. That is what has happened in the U.K.
We need a much more transparent process. The P3 agencies we have that do this—even members of Mr. Atkinson's organization—have said that Partnerships BC is biased towards P3s, so they produce many more P3s than would be appropriate.
We need much greater transparency and accountability and a transparent process. If you have that, you might be able to judge. Right now, a number of auditors across Canada who have looked at P3s that were supposedly providing a whole lot of savings have found that traditional procurement would have cost considerably less. These are provinces right across Canada.