Government Operations Committee on Oct. 4th, 2011

[John McCallum, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, NDP, Pat Martin]

The last questioner in this round is for the Conservative Party, Bernard Trottier.

[Bernard Trottier, Conservative, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

Hi there, and thank you for coming in today.

One of the entrepreneur groups that exist in this country is actually new Canadians, especially in my proud riding of Etobicoke—Lakeshore. In the city of Toronto there are a lot of entrepreneurs from eastern Europe, in particular. Based in my riding there is an organization called the Canada-Ukraine Chamber of Commerce, for example. There is also Canada-Poland and there are groups from the Balkans.

These are groups of entrepreneurs who historically might not sell to the Government of Canada but would be interested, I would think, if they knew of some of the opportunities. Have you taken any outreach efforts with those groups of entrepreneurs who are not the typical chambers of commerce, necessarily, that you'd find in a small town?

[Shereen Benzvy Miller]

Thank you for asking.

Yes, actually, we do make a great effort to go to a lot of the smaller associations, not just the large associations like the chambers of commerce but the more specifically designated associations that are interested in having outreach information provided. We go to their meetings and we provide seminars on location for them during their regular meetings, annual meetings, or whenever we're invited.

My colleagues and I often meet, at various conferences, people related to different industries. We are invited to speak and we will go, frankly, to talk to anybody who invites us.

So please encourage all of the associations in your riding to contact us. All our offices are strong, but Toronto has a very strong office.

[Bernard Trottier, Conservative, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

Do you find that there are any cultural barriers, though? I mean over and above any kind of language difficulties, which is typically not a problem for these entrepreneurs. Are there certain barriers with the way the government procures, which might prevent some new Canadian entrepreneurs from actually bidding on government contracts?

[Shereen Benzvy Miller]

We've worked with various associations that are actually dedicated to transitioning new Canadians to the business world in Canada. We've worked very closely with them because we do want to make sure our seminars are also user-friendly and sensitive to cultural distinctions. We've found that's not a problem at all, and we're very adaptable and open to pretty much any group that is interested in receiving the information.

[Bernard Trottier, Conservative, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

And maybe stepping outside of some of the larger urban centres, with aboriginal Canadians, can you give some examples of where there have been some successes in promoting entrepreneurship on reserves in first nations communities?

[Shereen Benzvy Miller]

I just want to be very clear that we don't actually promote specific entrepreneurs; we try to basically raise awareness and share information.

We're actually in the process of putting in place specific engagement for aboriginal communities with the various associations of first nations. That's being led out of our Vancouver office in the western region, and it's been very well received by those communities. We are really being careful to ensure that we take one step at a time to ensure that everybody is consulted and that the consultations are fully leveraged before we go into communities.

Essentially, we've had very good feedback and we've been very well received. And also I think the program trying to spread awareness about the PSAB program, the set-aside for aboriginal entrepreneurs, has been very successful.

[Bernard Trottier, Conservative, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

Maybe there's one more question I have around the overriding public policy objectives of encouraging government contracting with small and medium enterprise. Above and beyond just the openness and transparency, is there something extra that the Government of Canada receives from dealing with small and medium enterprise in terms of the culture of working, the responsiveness of working, with a small or medium enterprise?

I know you mentioned that you don't penalize a company for being successful and growing from, say, 490 employees to 510, for example, and they no longer are classified as a medium enterprise. But is the feedback you get, whether it's through the ombudsman or through the government departments, that there's a certain responsiveness, an extra level of service that the government gets from dealing with small and medium enterprise?

[Shereen Benzvy Miller]

I would say that Canadian businesses provide really good service and a really good response to procurement, so there isn't really something that distinguishes small and medium from large. We've had very good relationships with all levels of businesses across the country. I would say that it's really about respecting the legislative and policy frameworks of procurement to ensure that we're fair, open, and transparent to all, and that we respect our trade agreement obligations and that they respect the contracting obligations. I would be hard-pressed to make a distinction; all suppliers are good for me.

[The Chair, NDP, Pat Martin]

Mr. Trottier, that concludes your time.

That ends our first round, but building from a question Mr. Trottier asked, I was wondering if I could ask you to expand somewhat. In the previous study, witnesses told us that one of the problems they had was that some of the contracts were bundled and clustered in such a way that a small entrepreneur, a small local contractor, couldn't bid on such a large project. They asked the government to consider breaking some of these big IT contracts down so that local entrepreneurs could get a shot at them and perhaps grow their company. I was wondering if you could report on any progress in that regard.

Also, in the last study we looked at your American counterpart in some of the advocacy work they do to help small and medium enterprises get government contracts. I was wondering if there's been any exchange from your office with your American counterpart, or if you've implemented any ideas that you may have gleaned from exchanges with the U.S.

[Shereen Benzvy Miller]

If I may, I will answer the first part of the question--related to bundling--first. One of the things that the acquisitions branch has become very involved in this year is, as my colleague Mr. Sobrino mentioned, the procurement strategies for goods and services. Those strategies are essentially about aligning with the marketplace the way in which the Government of Canada plans its procurement of various goods and services.

For example, if you look at MERX now, there is an RFI posted concerning the future purchasing of small office equipment. The feedback we've had from the community--for instance, the printer and toner community--is that it's remarkable to have a government document that is so well aligned with the market direction, which is towards managed service, for instance. What we've found is that the more we consult with suppliers and the more we consult with the marketplace, the more we can align our strategies with that direction, and then the better served both the suppliers and the Government of Canada will be in terms of value and in terms of the ability to actually get suppliers to respond to our opportunities.

That's one of the things we've done. We've tried to align the way in which we buy with the way in which they want to sell. That's part of the response to bundling. Partly, it came out of the discussions that were had related to the GENS inquiry you did. I was one of those witnesses back then. What I would say about it is that one of the things that particular initiative taught us was that the more you consult, the better everybody understands the purpose of what we're trying to do, and the better we can align our purposes with the marketplace. We've actually had a good outcome on that as well.

With respect to your second question, which was about our exchanges with our American counterparts, it's interesting, because I had the good fortune two weeks ago to be in San Francisco with the minister at the APEC Women and the Economy conference. We had a bilateral meeting with Karen Mills, who is the administrator of the equivalent of our Office of Small and Medium Enterprises, the U.S. Small Business Administration. Our minister pointed out to her that she would like to have her budget, which is $842 million, to which Administrator Mills responded, “That's nice--I'd like to have the state department's budget.”

That having been said--that it is a bit like comparing apples and oranges--we do actually work with them, and we work with our counterparts there because there are opportunities to learn from them, for example in regard to the way in which they've developed their websites and the way they share information. The Americans have really taken open government quite seriously and have moved forward with that. That's helped us a lot to frame the way in which we do our work.

It's also helpful to have colleagues who have similar goals: to reach out to small businesses wherever they live and to give them a helping hand. Even though they have 1,000 fieldworkers and OSME has less than 20, we do our best to learn the lessons they can teach us and to work with them. We're partnering on some lessons learned around the greening of government operations and how to include small businesses in green initiatives.

[Pablo Sobrino]

Mr. Chair, if I could add to the question on the bundling and the effort to do this commodity management, as we call it, it is to break down the 14 different areas in which the government does the majority of its procurement and to understand what the industry needs to know about what we buy. This is about the day-to-day things: the photocopiers, the office furniture, the food and other services, and the professional services.

So it's about understanding what the industry is looking at or what businesses are looking at for information so they can participate in that procurement. For our client departments, the 140 federal departments and agencies we support, it's about them understanding as well what it means when you go out and procure locally. If we have this instrument that we're putting in place over the next year or year and a half, it will allow you as a buyer to just say, “Okay, I need to buy this piece of equipment”, and it just goes out and you buy that piece of equipment. You don't have to go through a big procurement process. You don't end up bundling things, which is one of the big concerns; that does cut out small and medium-sized enterprises.

This is the framework we've put in place to deal with that issue. Also, it has to be something that's sustainable. It can't be a quick fix. It has to be a more permanent fix, which is what's taking us time to put in place.

[The Chair, NDP, Pat Martin]

Thank you very much.

Starting the second round of questioning, we have Denis Blanchette.

[Denis Blanchette, NDP, Louis-Hébert, QC]

Good afternoon to you both, and welcome to the committee.

Last week we welcomed the Procurement Ombudsman. He emphasized an important point, which was the need small businesses have for information on the procurement process.

My first question concerns the ombudsman's report. What do you think about it and how are you going to change your information strategies so as to reduce this information and education shortfall regarding small and medium enterprises? I would be more accurate if I said “small enterprises”.

[Shereen Benzvy Miller]

What you are referring to is really very important to us. The information that organizations such Mr. Brunetta's office gather is very important because it makes it easier for us to know what challenges we face. When he reports on the problems he heard about from his clients, this helps us to develop our services, such as our information services.

For instance, we are going to follow up on the presentation he made before this committee. Indeed, we have made appointments with some people from his office in order to make sure we have a very recent presentation. We were waiting for him to have completed this year's report. During these meetings we will ask about the information that the ombudsman's clients are lacking and see how the Office of Small and Medium Enterprises could offer those services.

[Denis Blanchette, NDP, Louis-Hébert, QC]

He also mentioned that in the bidding process, at a certain point, a significant part of the contracts do not necessarily respect Treasury Board rules.

My question concerns what people tell you, and Treasury Board supply processes. How do you interact with regard to Treasury Board procurement processes?

[Pablo Sobrino]

Treasury Board—this is the policy—is responsible for the rules governing government contracts, and we apply those rules.

We hear small and medium business managers say that the complexity of these rules makes it difficult to interpret how to access the procurement system. That is why we created the website, the seminars, etc. We wanted to show that there is room for everyone in this system. It is complicated, it is complex, the regulations are quite long, but we try to demystify the jargon—as there is a great deal of jargon in the regulations—so that businesses may understand how they can access the procurement system.

I think that is what the ombudsman presented. There is really a gap between what the rules require and the interpretation of how to use the system. With regard to the entrepreneurs there is a shortfall in the process and we try to fill that gap. Several procurement mechanisms exist, and it is a matter of choosing the approach that will work. There is on the one hand a department that makes purchases, and there are the providers of services or goods. That is the work that we do.

[Denis Blanchette, NDP, Louis-Hébert, QC]

I have another question on another topic. You referred very quickly to the concepts of open data and open government. Clearly, that involves more than creating a website. I would like you to give us some further details on how you introduced those concepts into your organization.

[Shereen Benzvy Miller]

We had to look at what information the public was entitled to and how we could facilitate its access so that anyone could find their way around without having to jump through hoops or go through complex processes. It is easy to find things on the website: for instance, we created a section of the site entitled “Pre-Qualified Supplier Data”, where we provide information someone would need to work with other suppliers and see who has access to contracts, who is already prequalified and who would for instance have gone through various processes in order to deal with us.

The notions of open data and open government to our mind consist rather in trying to put into our website all of the information small and medium businesses need to deal with us.

[Denis Blanchette, NDP, Louis-Hébert, QC]

It is more about transparency.

[Shereen Benzvy Miller]

Transparency, yes but—

[The Chair, NDP, Pat Martin]

You are well over time. I'm afraid I will have to interrupt you.

For the Conservative Party, we will have Mr. Peter Braid.

[Peter Braid, Conservative, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here this afternoon.

My first question actually pertains to MERX. I presume that any small business that wishes to do business with the federal government and to understand what potential contracts there may be would need to register with MERX. Is that correct? Is that the price of admission?

[Shereen Benzvy Miller]

No. If we could back up for one second, to do business with the Government of Canada, you need a business number, so you register with the government. You do that on our website. The opportunities that are posted on the government electronic tendering system, which is currently under contract with MERX, are available for free to anybody who wants to download them. In order to download them, MERX does ask you to register so they know who they're sending them to. Sometimes people get confused that it's the price of admission, but it's free. We pay for all federal documentation to be shared for free with anybody who is interested in it.