Evidence of meeting #86 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was parties.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

David Olsen  Acting Chairperson, Public Service Labour Relations Board
Guy Lalonde  Executive Director of the Board, Public Service Labour Relations Board
Sylvie Guilbert  General Counsel, Legal Services, Public Service Labour Relations Board

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Peter Braid

Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the 86th meeting of the Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates.

This morning, under our orders of the day, we will begin with a presentation by representatives from the Public Service Labour Relations Board. With us this morning is Mr. David Olsen, acting chairperson. In addition, we have Monsieur Guy Lalonde, who is the executive director of the board. And we also have Madame Sylvie Guilbert, who is the general counsel for the Public Service Labour Relations Board.

We will be hearing a presentation from Mr. Olsen of five to ten minutes, sir, and then you will have the opportunity to take questions from members of the committee.

At the end of our hour we will need to set aside about ten minutes to deal with the business of estimates and supply and to pass votes on interim supply here at committee while we're still in a public forum.

With that, Mr. Olsen, please proceed.

11:05 a.m.

David Olsen Acting Chairperson, Public Service Labour Relations Board

Mr. Chair, thank you very much for the opportunity to speak with the committee today about the Public Service Labour Relations Board.

Established in 2005, the board is an independent quasi-judicial tribunal. This board replaced the Public Service Staff Relations Board, which had existed since 1967, when collective bargaining was first introduced into the federal public service.

We are mandated by the Public Service Labour Relations Act to administer the collective bargaining and grievance adjudication systems in the federal public service. We are also mandated by the Parliamentary Employment and Staff Relations Act to perform that same function for the institutions of Parliament and, in addition, for the Yukon. Under the Budget Implementation Act of 2009, responsibility for pay equity complaints arising from the public service was also transferred to this board.

The board provides three main services: adjudication, mediation, and compensation analysis and research.

Our adjudication services set us apart from other labour relations boards. Not only do we provide the traditional labour board services, which are certifying trade unions to represent employees in bargaining units for the purposes of collective bargaining, hearing unfair labour practice complaints, and administering the conciliation and arbitration process for the resolution of interest disputes; we also hear all of the grievances arising from the interpretation and application of collective agreements in the federal public service as well as cases relating to discipline, other forms of termination, and so forth. That is the largest part of our adjudication practice—the resolution of rights disputes.

Now, the seventh report of the Prime Minister's Advisory Committee on the Public Service, on modernizing the employment model, states that labour relations issues “take too long to resolve”, and the best interests of both employees and the public can be “lost in the process”.

While our board is just one participant, along with the trade unions and the employer, in this labour relations regime, we share this view. As such, we are focused on providing more streamlined, responsive, and effective adjudication techniques. We also seek to promote timely mediation to help the parties reach mutually satisfactory resolutions to their issues short of full-blown arbitration.

This, we believe, will contribute to a productive, disruption-free workplace that will ultimately benefit Canadians through the smooth delivery of essential programs and services.

I'll just break that down a little bit. For us, streamlining our processes first means understanding the caseload generated by the parties. We're the labour board. The parties refer their cases to us for resolution. To do that, we have developed innovative ways to strategically manage a robust caseload that has grown from about 1,200 a decade ago to over 6,500 today. We do close or resolve more cases than we receive in any given year, and that's up around 1,600 cases a year, but there is still a backlog. Our goal is to deal with that caseload efficiently.

We do that by managing our schedule more aggressively, by doing up-front analysis on the types of cases we have, and, of interest, we're also prepared to customize our processes unless they're embedded in the regulations. We'll customize our processes for the employer and the trade union to find a process that will work for them.

Over half of our caseload is generated by employees in one bargaining unit. We have established a special task force to address the particular needs of that group. Because there are a large number of grievances, we will group them and try to have a representative case decided, and hopefully the parties will apply the rationale for that case to resolve all of the grievances. We attempt to consistently appoint adjudicators who are familiar with these parties.

In consultation with the federal employers and the trade unions—this is very recent—we have established a representative working group to look into a greater use of using expedited arbitration, which would allow for many cases to be heard on the same day before an adjudicator. It has been used in the past and has fallen into disuse in recent years. We're trying to revive that. That will cut down on the need for formal hearings and so on, which is really a Cadillac form of grievance resolution.

Other efficiency initiatives include better managing of the hearing processes by up-front analysis. When we do that we can decide that maybe we don't need a full-blown hearing. On some cases, perhaps, if the facts aren't in dispute, we can use written submissions without going into a full hearing to resolve the cases.

We're also making use of pre-hearing conferences to attempt to get agreements on facts so that we can reduce the need for full-blown hearings and make sure there are no procedural surprises coming up at the hearings.

We're making some headway in these areas.

I should point out that a single adjudicator hears our cases, unlike other tribunals that have panels of three. We can use them, but we don't use them very often. Most of our cases are resolved by one adjudicator sitting alone, and there is no registrar or administrative person sitting with that adjudicator to take care of exhibits, so the adjudicator has to do all of that work himself or herself.

We also attempt to make use of part-time adjudicators, especially on the east and west coasts, to save travel time for our full-time adjudicators.

Unlike some boards, we don't have regional offices, so in order to save on the costs of having to pay for hotel rooms and so on, we've made arrangements with the Federal Court and with other administrative tribunals wherever possible to minimize our costs. Recently we've taken some initiatives to use video conferencing in cases where the facts aren't in dispute in order to save on travel costs as well.

Another priority of the board that contributes to our efficiency is to continue to modernize our information technology and information management infrastructure. I am pleased to announce that we will be launching our state-of-the-art electronic labour relations information system within the next few weeks. That system will provide us with even stronger analytical capabilities. In the same timeframe we are introducing an information management system for our records management.

I'm confident that both systems, which are built on a sustainable technology platform, will serve us for years to come and will help us realize significant cost savings.

The other area that the Public Service Labour Relations Act stipulates as part of our mandate is compensation analysis and research services. The government announced in its most recent budget its interest and commitment in comparing the total compensation of federal public servants with the private sector. As I said, our board is mandated by the act to do this comparison. We are currently analyzing the wages and benefits of workers in other public sector jurisdictions. We plan to publish our findings in the coming months. Following that, we hope to start the comparison with the private sector later in the year.

A well-managed organization must remain focused on ensuring that the right resources are properly allocated. While the board is a small organization with direct annual expenditures of $11.5 million and 72 full-time equivalent positions to support the board's activities, we attempt to remain as effective and efficient as possible.

We constantly review our operations, and we attempt to identify efficiencies and where we can save money. We've rationalized our staff, including the deletion of some senior-level positions, to meet the board's strategic needs.

Over the past few years, we've made strides in achieving other efficiencies as well. Of particular note, we recognized the need and took the lead for a small organization such as ours to avoid duplication of effort by engaging in partnerships. We provide back-office services, such as information technology, web, finance, library, compensation, and other human resources services to the Public Service Staffing Tribunal. We provided those services as well to the Canadian Artists and Producers Professional Relations Tribunal, which has now been incorporated into the Canada Industrial Relations Board, and Environmental Protection Review Canada under formal shared agreements.

We also entered into arrangements with the Canada Industrial Relations Board with respect to using their hearing facilities. They have hearing facilities in several regional offices across the country, so we've entered into arrangements with them, as well as for the use of their video conferencing facilities. Our board does not have those facilities, and that board has kindly entered into an arrangement with us to use theirs.

We've also consolidated our office space and rationalized our library service, reducing our print collection to only those resources that are strictly necessary and moving to digital formats wherever possible.

In conclusion, what sets us apart is our unique role and mandate of independent adjudication, mediation, and compensation analysis and research. What also sets us apart is that we work closely with the federal workplace parties in supporting their efforts to address the evolving needs of Canadians.

Moving forward, we will continue to regularly review our systems and processes and improve our practices and approaches to further enhance our efficiency and effectiveness. We strive to meet the needs of our clients and to fulfill our mission, which is to resolve labour relations issues in an impartial manner in the federal public service.

I thank you very much for your attention. I'd be willing to take questions along with my colleagues.

Thank you.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Peter Braid

Thank you very much, Mr. Olsen. We will now provide members with the opportunity to ask a few questions, both relating to the content of your very helpful and informative presentation this morning and any questions relating to the main estimates for the Public Service Labour Relations Board.

We will begin with Mr. Ravignat.

11:15 a.m.

NDP

Mathieu Ravignat NDP Pontiac, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank the witnesses for being here today.

My first question has to do with the fact that you said that you resolve about 1,600 cases a year and that the volume and complexity of your workload was continuing to increase.

What are the main reasons for the workload increase? Is there a direct link between the chaotic way this government is assigning officials and making cuts to the public service?

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Peter Braid

Would you like that question translated again?

11:20 a.m.

Acting Chairperson, Public Service Labour Relations Board

David Olsen

I didn't have my microphone handy, so thank you.

11:20 a.m.

NDP

Mathieu Ravignat NDP Pontiac, QC

Would you like me to repeat my question, Mr. Chair?

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Peter Braid

I'll just ask if the translator is able to translate the question once again.

Or would you like to proceed to ask it again, Mr. Ravignat? Why don't you proceed?

11:20 a.m.

NDP

Mathieu Ravignat NDP Pontiac, QC

Okay.

You said that you handle about 1,600 cases a year and that you expect the volume and complexity of the workload to continue to increase.

My question is simple. What are the main reasons for that workload increase? Is there a direct link with the chaotic way the government has assigned officials and made cuts to the public service?

11:20 a.m.

Acting Chairperson, Public Service Labour Relations Board

David Olsen

I think, sir, the question would be better placed to the parties, the collective bargaining parties, as opposed to the board, but as I indicated in my remarks, we have identified one party that generates by far the greatest caseload. I believe it's half or more of the caseload and....

11:20 a.m.

NDP

Mathieu Ravignat NDP Pontiac, QC

Which partner are we talking about?

11:20 a.m.

Acting Chairperson, Public Service Labour Relations Board

David Olsen

The grievances come from the trade union that represents the employees at the Correctional Service of Canada, sir.

11:20 a.m.

NDP

Mathieu Ravignat NDP Pontiac, QC

Thank you for that very interesting detail.

Last week, I asked the Treasury Board president how much money the government had spent on legal fees because of employee or union disagreements. Do you think there has been a significant increase in this government's legal costs and fees in the past two years?

11:20 a.m.

Acting Chairperson, Public Service Labour Relations Board

David Olsen

This board would not be privy to that information, sir. The legal fees.... Well, first of all, the employer, the Treasury Board, is represented by the Department of Justice, their in-house counsel. For the trade unions, some use external counsel, but the Public Service Alliance of Canada, for example, the largest trade union, has quite a number of in-house counsel on staff and—

11:20 a.m.

NDP

Mathieu Ravignat NDP Pontiac, QC

I am talking about the government, sir.

11:20 a.m.

Acting Chairperson, Public Service Labour Relations Board

David Olsen

I'm sorry, sir. From the government side...?

11:20 a.m.

NDP

Mathieu Ravignat NDP Pontiac, QC

Have there been more cases? If there had been more cases, logically, the government would have had to spend more on legal fees.

11:20 a.m.

Acting Chairperson, Public Service Labour Relations Board

David Olsen

That's a question, sir.... As I say, Treasury Board uses the justice department counsel. They would be in a position to answer that.

11:20 a.m.

NDP

Mathieu Ravignat NDP Pontiac, QC

That's fine. Thank you very much. I understand the answer.

I will move on to something else.

I've noted that in section 13 of the PSLRA mandate the board is to undertake compensation research for the employers and unions covered by the act. I'd like to have a sense of the status of their research, or your research, on total compensation, particularly on comparing the private versus the public sector.

11:20 a.m.

Guy Lalonde Executive Director of the Board, Public Service Labour Relations Board

The program is fairly new. We conducted a pilot project in 2008 that focused on health care classes. It involved a comparison of the various health care professions across the country.

We relaunched the program in the past year. We wanted to start with a comparison of the various public and parapublic sectors. A study that does a federal-provincial comparison is under way. In fact, we have completed the matching of positions. We are at the stage of collecting data on overall compensation.

For the private sector—

11:25 a.m.

NDP

Mathieu Ravignat NDP Pontiac, QC

Thank you for that information. That's enough.

However, I will ask you this question.

Has there been any consultation with bargaining agents at this point?

11:25 a.m.

Executive Director of the Board, Public Service Labour Relations Board

Guy Lalonde

Yes. In setting up the program, in fact, there have been extensive consultations with all parties involved, and we continue to have these consultations.

In fact, as we're—

11:25 a.m.

NDP

Mathieu Ravignat NDP Pontiac, QC

But to my understanding, the joint committee, which is requested by the act, has not been set up yet. Is that true?

11:25 a.m.

Executive Director of the Board, Public Service Labour Relations Board

Guy Lalonde

Actually, the advisory committee was set up initially. It had an initial mandate. It lasted its full term. Nobody was reappointed to the advisory committee, so in lieu of, we launched our own consultative processes.

11:25 a.m.

NDP

Mathieu Ravignat NDP Pontiac, QC

Can I ask you why?

That's it?

Thank you, Mr. Chair.