Government Operations Committee on May 5th, 2014

[The Chair, NDP, Pierre-Luc Dusseault]

Good afternoon everyone. Thank you for coming. I would like to in particular thank the President of the Treasury Board who is honouring us with his presence this afternoon. We usually sit in the morning but today we are sitting in the afternoon in order to include Mr. Clement in our study on open data.

Without any further delay I will give him the floor to make his opening statement. Committee members will then have the opportunity to ask him questions.

Mr. Clement, you have the floor.

[Tony Clement, Conservative, President of the Treasury Board]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon everyone.

I'd like to thank, first of all, the members of the committee for inviting us to talk about our approach to open data. I've come here with my officials, Corinne Charette, who is the chief information officer of the Government of Canada, and Dave Adamson, who is the deputy chief information officer of the Government of Canada.

I want to mention some of the good news about our approach to open data, but I want to take a couple of minutes to talk a little bit about one of the most recent issues concerning data security, the Heartbleed bug, which made its way around the country and the world. You've probably heard a lot about it over the last few weeks. It's something that you might be concerned about; certainly we are concerned about it, as well.

Due to this Heartbleed bug, there was a vulnerability in the OpenSSL software. It is a global issue. It affected websites all around the world. I should inform you that recently, a dozen companies, including Amazon, Cisco Systems, Facebook, Google, IBM, Intel, and Microsoft, announced they were each donating $300,000 to fund improvements in open source programs like OpenSSL.

As a government, we learned of the vulnerability at the same time as the rest of the world did, and we took quick and public measures to address the situation. We directed all departments to take down any public-facing websites using OpenSSL until patches were applied. The work was done, Mr. Chairman, quickly, within a matter of days, and secure access to government websites was restored.

The CRA acted swiftly, as well. They had to respond to a privacy breach caused by this vulnerability before the patch was applied, and they did inform affected Canadians.

As you know, the RCMP has already apprehended the person who exploited the vulnerability.

Our government took the right steps to protect the privacy and security of Canadians in an open and transparent manner. Today, all websites using OpenSSL are up and running.

Over the past few weeks you've also heard a lot about open data from industry and academic experts, such as Ginny Dybenko from the University of Waterloo.

In her appearance before this committee, she expressed the view:

Open data is our next natural resource. Canada has the digital infrastructure. We have the reputation for collaborative management. We have the respect of many in the world in this arena, and we have a hugely developing knowledge worker population....

She went on to add:

Canada should make open data a priority, establishing policies, engaging in long-term planning, and developing capacity.

I'd like to turn to that subject now.

As you know, open data is a growing worldwide phenomenon. It's about making raw data available in machine-readable formats to citizens, governments, and not-for-profit and private sector organizations to leverage in innovative and value-added ways. It has the potential to spur innovation and to drive social, political, and economic change in Canada and around the world.

Recently, the U.S. global management consulting firm McKinsey and Company estimated that open data could unlock trillions—and I say that word “trillions”—of dollars in the global economy. Of course the full potential of open data can be realized only when it is available to as many people as possible. That's why I should let you know that our government is committed at both the national and the international levels to making it as easy as possible to find, access, and reuse government data.

Internationally, back in April 2012, I announced Canada's membership in the global Open Government Partnership. Now more than 60 countries have signed on to the Open Government Partnership, and each is committed to promoting transparency, empowering citizens, and harnessing new technologies to strengthen governance.

As part of our partnership agreement, Canada has pledged to support and promote open government in this country and around the world.

In addition, last June, Canada and the other G-8 members adopted the Open Data Charter which committed them to the following five principles:

First is open data by default, which means publishing as much open data as possible proactively, while recognizing that there are legitimate reasons why some data cannot be released.

Second is quantity and quality, which means releasing open data of quality in a timely fashion and well-described by metadata.

Third is usable by all. which means ensuring that all released data is in open reusable formats.

Fourth is releasing data for improved governance, which is about sharing data expertise and being transparent about data collection, standards, and publishing processes.

Fifth is releasing data for innovation, which means consulting with users on what data they need to drive innovative applications and work with government on solving problems.

Also in 2013, Canada became the co-chair of the Open Government Partnership working group on open data with over 30 countries and 75 civil society organizations represented.

This position supports our role as a global leader in open data. At the national level, we are committed to making it as easy as possible for Canadians to find, access and use government data. Last June, for example, we launched the revamped open data portal at data.gc.ca.

This portal is a one-stop shop for approximately 200,000 data sets from 38 departments that can be downloaded free of charge by anyone in Canada or around the world.

Another key feature of the portal is the open government licence, which offers users unrestricted use of government data and information. These tools make open data easily accessible and allow creative Canadians to unlock its economic and social value through innovative applications.

We also want to support open data as an enabler of economic, social, and political change by putting as much government data and as much good data as possible into the hands of Canadians. For example, we have an initiative under way called open data Canada. This is a collaborative initiative with provincial and territorial governments to create a seamless pan-Canadian community and environment for open data. This will help ensure a no-wrong-door approach, which will allow citizens from coast to coast to search for and access data from multiple governments regardless of which portal they use to start their search, and also allow use of the same common licence across Canada.

Eventually, using this approach and with the right standards in place, citizens of other countries will also be able to access, compare, and use open data from Canada, and Canadians will be able to access theirs.

With respect to security and privacy, our forthcoming directive on open government will require federal departments and agencies to maximize the open and proactive release of their data, subject to privacy, security, and confidentiality restrictions. At this point we are still some years away from completing the single pan-Canadian open data community and environment. As more jurisdictions adopt the same common licence, however, and as standards are put in place, this will create a snowball effect. We will see for example that more and better data will be used for better decision-making in business and research, and developing social programs, and in the day-to-day lives of Canadians. Data users could be working for a mining company and using geospatial data to support exploration; or they could be working for a non-governmental organization doing research on a limited budget and benefiting from the cost savings resulting in more efficient and more effective research; or they could be entrepreneurs leveraging their knowledge to create apps that help Canadians.

Sam Vermette, for example, a native of Montreal, developed the transit app that offers real-time transit directions, notifications, and route planning to over 43,000 cities across North America. Since its launch in May, it has been downloaded over 150,000 times.

Mapping apps like the transit app are estimated to have unlocked $90 billion in value just in the U.S. alone. With all of these uses for open data, you can start to appreciate its huge potential for spurring economic growth for job creation and long-term prosperity.

So let me just conclude by telling you about a very positive event, our first national appathon, which took place earlier this year.

The Canadian Open Data Experience, or CODE, was held in conjunction with XMG Studio, a leading mobile game developer. In doing so, we had the pleasure of working closely with that company's chief executive officer Ray Sharma.

You recall that Ray recently appeared before this committee. He is an industry leader who has been quick to see the economic value in the Canadian open data market. I should tell you that working with him was a gratifying experience for me and for everyone else involved.

During the two-day CODE appathon in Toronto, from February 28 to March 2, teams using federal government data were challenged to develop consumer-friendly apps under the theme of solving problems and increasing productivity through the use of open data. In all, more than 900 Canadians from coast to coast participated, creating a total of 111 apps, the best of which won cash prizes, including the grand prize of $25,000 provided by OpenText Corporation.

It was very inspiring for me to see what creative, entrepreneurial people could do with federal government open data.

I should mention the winning app was newRoots, which matches new Canadians with cities that give them the greatest opportunity to maximize their career potential and to fulfill their goals and those of their families. The app uses open data from Statistics Canada, Employment and Social Development Canada, Canada Revenue Agency, and Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation.

And I understand the developers are using their winnings to build a business behind their app. That's just one more example of how open data can serve the needs of Canadians.

The sky is truly the limit, Mr. Chair, and we are proud to play an important role in leading our citizens into the next stage of the global information age.

Thank you, and I'd be pleased to take any questions.

[The Chair, NDP, Pierre-Luc Dusseault]

Thank you, Minister, for your opening statement and for coming today.

We will now move on to questions.

Mr. Martin, you have the floor. You have five minutes.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Mr. Clement, we're pleased to have you here as the President of the Treasury Board.

I can tell you're very proud of this particular project.

You'll forgive me with all due respect if I say that people have to be judged by what they do, not by what they say, and there's a cavernous gulf between the lofty principles which you're espousing here about freedom of information and the actual practices of this government, where information is hoarded and rationed out in little tidbits. I think the black shroud of secrecy will be the single defining hallmark of the Harper administration. So we find that this emphasis on open data and trying to give the impression that, some time in the future, information will be available by default is really a bit of a diversionary tactic, because nothing could be further from the truth.

Let me point out, within your own remarks, the first bullet point of the five principles you've adopted refers to recognizing that there are legitimate reasons that some data cannot be released. How are we to know that you're not just failing to release data because it could be embarrassing to the government? With your history of muzzling scientists, being virtually anti-information, against the long-form census, and so on, I mean you get to decide what gets released and when. I strongly suspect if there's anything that could be potentially embarrassing to your government, it's not going to be your default position to put it up voluntarily and give your opponents a stick to beat you with. Who's going to be the arbitrator? Is it going to be up to the Information Commissioner of Canada or the public to be able to appeal for the release of data when this nirvana of open data in your mind becomes a reality?

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Thank you for the question. Allow me to respectfully disagree with the premise, the content, and the conclusion, but other than that, we're on the same side.

I should repeat for the record that we have put online, available for free, over 200,000 data sets. Of course with the open data, by default, that will keep growing and replenishing. That's the reality. That's the action we've taken.

Embedded in that query was a concern about access to information. I can tell you that in the last year measured, 2012-13, our government processed nearly 54,000 access to information requests, which is a 27% increase over the previous year—

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

You have frustrated us—

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

—and more than six million pages were released, an increase of nearly two million.

Those are the statistics. I believe that when you ask what the legal framework for that is, so that decisions are not made in a capricious manner, we do have a legal framework. We are required by the access to information law, the information laws, and the privacy laws to ensure that we protect privacy and if that is done, the information has to be released and has to be available.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Well, let's see how we're doing on the national stage in the open data context.

When you compare the number of countries that are involved in it, the information is broken down into nine different categories of data sets. Under national statistics, as one of those data sets, the United Kingdom has a 100% release of all information for national statistics, and the United States, another member country, has 100%. Canada has a 40% compliance rate in that category.

In another category...let me see, I'll cherry-pick a really good one.

Under the legislation data set, the United Kingdom has 90%, the United States has 85%, and Canada has 60%.

The largest data set is government spending; this is the one where people have a right to know what their government is doing with their money. It's a fundamental cornerstone of our democracy. In this category the United Kingdom has 100%, the United States has 90%, and Canada has 10%. Even the pilot project you had going, you've cancelled.

What is the reluctance to tell Canadians what you're doing with their money? It's not government's information to ration out in tidbits as you see fit. That information belongs to the people of Canada, whose tax dollars commissioned it and whose tax dollars gave you permission to create it. It shouldn't be like pulling teeth trying to get it out of you. How do you explain this independent analysis of compliance, with the open data index, with such an appalling figure of 10%?

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Sure.

I'm not familiar with the statistics that you mentioned. Let me take one example, the one that's near and dear to our hearts as parliamentarians, which is having more information available on spending patterns within government.

I'm very proud that last year I was able to create a whole new regime, available online, that would allow parliamentarians and the public to compare spending patterns year for year, program by program, and department by department. That was never available online before. This committee complained about how laborious it was to try to search through and mine through the paper that was presented by Treasury Board and by the government. We fixed that, and I think that is a step in the right direction.

[The Chair, NDP, Pierre-Luc Dusseault]

Thank you for your answers.

Ms. Ablonczy, you have the floor. You have five minutes.

[Diane Ablonczy, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Minister, I guess my colleague opposite got up on the wrong side of the bed.

As we listen to witnesses, and especially those from the municipalities, it's pretty clear that people are using different formats as they put this open data online. I worry about that, because there's no way that we can synthesize information from different sources if it's in different formats.

Is there anything that you're doing to address that?

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Yes, I think that is a legitimate concern.

We have to keep in mind that we're at the beginning stages of a movement that has really started to gain steam over the last few years. What we are trying to do through our open data partnership initiative is to try to work with municipalities, especially forward-looking ones that have been excellent in this area—I think of Edmonton in your province; Vancouver has been very forward looking—and work with them to try to harmonize as much as possible, because it's the same users—I think you hit on this point—who need to have access to municipal information, provincial information, and federal information. The sooner we can get formats aligned where you can cross-reference that information, the better.

It is a work in progress, I grant you that. We certainly see it as part of our responsibility to help herd the cats a little bit and to get to a better place on it.

[Diane Ablonczy, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

We really support you in that. I think it's going to be very important. This is just in its infancy, but as people go off on different tracks, we're going to have problems.

You just finished, on April 24, the first round table of your consultations on open data. I wonder if you could help us understand what people are saying to you and what users think of the data so far. That is really the key point we're interested in.

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

People are excited about our ability to have delivered on the 200,000 data sets.

We have, through all stages of the process, worked with the users community, whether they are academics, entrepreneurs, or NGOs, and they've really helped us. First of all, when we relaunched the portal, for instance, they were really driving the architecture of the portal, so that we knew what they needed and how they needed to get it.

As we go through this next phase of consultation, they keep giving us feedback on what is working, what isn't working, what the next layer has to look like, and how we can better serve them. It's an ongoing process, but certainly we are listening very carefully.

[Diane Ablonczy, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

What have they been saying so far about the usefulness and utility of the data? What are their main recommendations to improve the process?

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Again, we're just starting the feedback loop.

I would say there's generally a level of satisfaction, but they are always giving us hints and suggestions on how better usable the site can be for the casual user. I remember a concern that was raised: they're experts and they're academics, but how does a student in grade 9 somewhere in the country get access to the data in a way that will help her finish a project, for instance? We are mindful of those issues, as well. It has to be usable by experts, but also usable by Canadians in their everyday lives.

[Diane Ablonczy, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

One of the concerns we've heard is that the data is static. In other words, it was just kind of gathered from the past and put on the portal, but it's not forward looking, nor does it have links to other information. The example you probably know is charities. There's static information about charities, but not information about what monies they might get from other funders, etc., so it's a problem.

Are some of the things you're grappling with being set aside until later? How is this process happening?

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

I think these are legitimate concerns.

One of the things we're trying to do, obviously, is keep replenishing the data so that it is new, modern, and up to date. That is an ongoing exercise. Having open data, by default, will help us in that regard.

Similarly, when it comes to how the data is usable, we are taking into account the feedback we're getting, absolutely.

[The Chair, NDP, Pierre-Luc Dusseault]

Thank you for your answer.

Ms. Day, you have five minutes.

[Anne-Marie Day, NDP, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Clement and Mr. Adamson and Ms. Charette, welcome to this committee. We are very happy to have you here. Mr. Clement, if you were able to stay longer we would keep you here for longer than the scheduled hour because we have many questions to ask you.

The President and CEO of the Chicago Open Data Institute recently appeared before this committee and gave us quite an amazing presentation.

One of the charter principles is that data should be open by default. This organization had a list of lobbyists, how many there were and even the sums of money that each one was receiving in contracts, etc. There was complete transparency. He told us that, depending on the policy and the mayor in power, that data could be open, partially open, withdrawn, available to everyone or not, depending on the will of the politicians.

How can the government explain the fact that it wants to be more transparent for Canadians and provide open data, but the number of complaints being filed with the Information Commissioner of Canada has considerably increased under the Conservatives?

Here are a few numbers: there were 1,465 complaints in 2012, 1,596 in 2013 and 1,957 in 2014, which does not include the complaints filed in the month of March which have not yet been calculated.

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

As I mentioned, a record high number of access to information requests were received in 2012-2013, close to 54,000 requests, a 27% increase in the number of requests over the previous year. There were over 10,000 extra requests, an increase of about 2 million pages, for a total of over 6 million pages.

It is important to make it clear that the process was neither set out by members of Parliament nor by members of the cabinet. It is a governmental process; I am therefore in no position to impose a political situation on Ms. Charette or the department.

It's not a political process; it's a governmental process. We treat it as one that is non-political in that sense.

[Anne-Marie Day, NDP, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

I have a supplementary question.

One of the G8's objectives is to provide sufficient, high-quality data.

When I look, for instance, at data on access to information at Library and Archives Canada, I see that in the case of 156 requests, the average processing time was 39 days, and that 167 extension requests were made to various applicants.

How can we claim that the government wants to be open when it cannot even meet the demand?

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

I will let Ms. Charrette answer your question.

[Corinne Charette, Chief Information Officer of the Government of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat]

We realize that the departments sometimes face a sudden increase in the number of access to information requests, while the size of the team in charge of processing the requests does not necessarily increase accordingly. There is a fairly set number of people on the team in charge of responding to access to information requests. But there are times when, all of the sudden, they become overloaded with requests.

For example, in the wake of the accident in Lac-Mégantic, Transport Canada was inundated with access to information requests. Obviously, under such exceptional circumstances, the team in place does not have the means necessary to quickly meet the demand, despite all its efforts.

As for Library and Archives Canada, I encourage you to communicate directly with the relevant division in order to obtain more details. I take it that the delays are caused by a workload accumulation due to a period of increase in the volume of requests, and that the team in charge is working hard to get rid of the backlog and to get back to normal.

In 2012-2013, we observed an overall 27% reduction in the number of requests with processing times exceeding 121 days. Over the last 12 months, we have implemented a series of best practices and adjusted processes so that access to information divisions may meet all requests in a timely manner. We are working very hard on this.

[Anne-Marie Day, NDP, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you.