Government Operations Committee on May 5th, 2014

[The Chair, NDP, Pierre-Luc Dusseault]

Thank you, Mr. Aspin.

I now give the floor to Mr. Martin, you have five minutes, sir.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Maybe I can help Jay answer some of the questions with some statistics.

The open data index is put together by independent data experts around the world, based on the open data census. They track how Canada is doing in 10 key data set areas. Here is how it ranks: of these developed nations, United Kingdom is ahead of us, the United States is ahead of us, Denmark is ahead of us, as are Norway, Netherlands, Finland, Sweden, New Zealand, Australia, and not by a little bit but by double the score. United Kingdom is ranked at 940 points out of 1,000. We're ranked at 590 points out of 1,000.

Clearly, if it's our intent to be a world leader, we're laggards in that field. I don't think it's getting the resources it needs. Witnesses have told us that if we want to put this data forward in a way that's accessible, usable, and well-organized—accessible is the word, I suppose—there has to be a lot more spending. We're spending a lot more on snooping on people than we are on sharing information.

I have a specific question for you, other than simply taking potshots at your project, Minister. Specifically, the open data index points out that....

Well, let me read what you committed to on data.gc.ca. Under expenditures you've committed to, as per your G-8 commitments, providing forecasts of in-year available expenditure authorities for voted and statutory authorities for departments, agencies, and crown corporations.

When you signed on in February 2012, you started a pilot project in that regard. The open data index is wondering why you've discontinued that pilot project, and why we are at 10% in that category compared to 100% compliance for the United Kingdom, 100% compliance for the United States. It's 10% for the Government of Canada.

The one category Canadians really do want to know about is government spending. You can release all the weather forecasting information you want, which is of some utility, I suppose, but people really want to know what their government is doing with their money. How do you explain this criticism by the open data index that this pilot project has been cancelled, and the last report was September 2013 in that category?

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

I've just accessed the open data index site. It's great to have NGOs be critical of governments; that's what some NGOs do, and I welcome their constructive criticism. I have no idea about their methodology. I'm going to click on “contributors” to see who contributes to this organization. There are a number of editors from around the world. I don't know who they are or what their credentials are, but I'd be happy to delve deeper into this site that you seem to be quoting.

All I can tell you is that we are part of a 60-nation partnership. We are proud to be leaders in this field, and we will continue to be.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Well, I guess I'm putting it to you that you're not leaders in this field, and that it's not getting the attention that I think it deserves.

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

I have the site you're talking about. I don't know anything about these people and what their expertise is, so I really can't comment on your question. But if you're going to ask me questions based on stuff you search on the Internet, go right ahead. Let's keep talking.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

I'll ask you questions based on what we heard in evidence. We had testimony that the departments are releasing data that (a) is not useful to citizens, (b) is provided in a format that's difficult to work with, such as printed copies of spreadsheets rather than an Excel file, and (c) is not standardized, which makes it difficult to compare data sets from different departments. These are three legitimate criticisms of the site data.gc.ca, as it currently stands.

What kind of investment, what amount of money is it going to take to fix that, so that it's a state-of-the art, user-friendly, smart website? If you're serious about sharing information, you ought to make it user friendly.

[Corinne Charette]

We'll certainly look into that site and compare. I believe there have been times when some of the data sets posted were in the wrong format. I would say that those are very few cases, as we work very hard with departments to ensure that they're in readable formats and properly described. We will go back to this index and compare it.

My suspicion is that they are using out-of-date data; in other words, what they've published at that time would have been snapshots of earlier efforts, because at this point we're quite pleased with the quality of how we present data sets online and the consistency of the standards. In fact, the standards for metadata are fundamental—you're absolutely right—to making this usable. We continue to work with all departments across the government, Finance, to ensure that we put the information out as quickly as it is suitable for publication.

[The Chair, NDP, Pierre-Luc Dusseault]

Thank you.

I must interrupt you in order to give the floor to Mr. O'Connor.

[Gordon O'Connor, Carleton—Mississippi Mills, CPC]

Minister, we've heard from different people about how wonderful this system is, and how we're going to save billions and trillions of dollars. I have to tell you, I'm very skeptical.

I understand the value of the information itself. Providing people with information is good, but I can't see how it's going to turn into billions or trillions of dollars. When you take 100 people and they receive 100 pieces of information, they'll say, “fine”, and they'll want another 100. It never stops. It may mean we have to employ more people in the government to provide more information—I don't know—but I just don't see how you're going to save all these billions and trillions.

Maybe you could explain it to me.

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

I don't think it's a question of saving the money; it's a question of wealth generation. I'll give you one example of how that's worked already in our society, which is your weather app.

Most Canadians care about the weather. They talk about the weather. They want to know what the weather is, so most Canadians have a weather app on their mobile device to give them the five-day, seven-day, or ten-day forecast. That helps them plan their trips and make sure they are properly and safely dressed for inclement weather, so there's a very positive impact on productivity as well as on safety. That's just one example.

Another great app is by Health Canada, which now publishes via a mobile app any safety recalls. This helps. For instance, if there's a baby crib that has been recalled, a new mom and dad will know about the recall and will be able to better protect their baby from that particular product. That's a social good quite apart from the wealth creation of other apps.

There are map apps. We can go from point A to point B in a safe and quick manner because of open data, because that geospatial data has been made open. Firms like Google, using Google Maps, and others are able to take that data, and with just the press of a button, you can find the transit route when you're in an unfamiliar city. It saves you time and money.

All of these things have been quantified. I think it's a bit of a guessing game—you're absolutely right—about the future, but certainly their present impact has been quite profound in society.

[Gordon O'Connor]

Okay. I'll move to a different topic.

We've been listening to various experts come and tell us about open data, and basically, most of them are what I would call nerds. They live in that world of coding and research, etc. We really want this material to get to the public, and I understand from earlier briefings that the government's not advertising. They're doing it by osmosis or something, and it'll never get to the public by osmosis. I believe that if you're going to do this, you have to advertise. You need to get on the radio and the TV and advertise that you have these sites, because there are millions of people out there who have no idea about these sites.

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Obviously this is part and parcel of the remaking in a format that is helpful to Canadians of all government websites, which is currently ongoing. That will help when people think of something they want to get, and they'll know where to get it.

I know that some would like us to pour heaps of dollars into this, but I think the better approach, quite frankly, is to use the nerds that you mentioned as intermediaries. They are able to take data and find a way to apply it to a useful app, and then it's up to them to advertise it to Canadians, to say that the app exists, and it's going to help make their lives better. Then these things tend to go viral.

That's the model I'm employing. I don't want to spend heaps more dollars on something when entrepreneurs using their mental agility could probably do a better job than we could anyway.

[Gordon O'Connor]

I know your department is enthusiastic about this open data, but are other departments as enthusiastic as you are?

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

They're starting to be. I have communicated with all of my colleagues about their taking a leadership role within their department to get more open data, and the responses have been very encouraging. My colleagues have started to identify areas, whether it's fish stock information over at DFO, for instance, or other information that should be available but for whatever reason hasn't been made available.

We are collating that information, and we are working with them to publish the new data.

[The Chair, NDP, Pierre-Luc Dusseault]

Thank you.

Ms. Day, you have the floor.

[Anne-Marie Day, NDP, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

According to experts who appeared before the committee, it would be crucial to return to the much discussed long-form census in order to provide Canadians, including businesses, added-value data.

Would you commit to reintroducing the former version of the census, or an amended version of it, making sure that it will be of use to Canadian businesses?

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Statistics Canada tells us that most of the information in the new form is useful. Of course, we must protect the privacy of Canadians. However, we must also make sure that the data from Statistics Canada can be used by Canadians. It is also important that I mention that there are different types of data. Statistics Canada represents part of our website. A lot of data is useful for Canadians, researchers, etc.

[Anne-Marie Day, NDP, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

You mentioned there were 200 data sets in 38 departments. Some witnesses highlighted the fact that most of the data was not in RDF format, although that is very important. You had started talking about this.

Moreover, municipality websites are very user-friendly and can be used easily by citizens. They contain first-line information.

Finally, is there a cross-reference between the various municipal, provincial, or federal portals to avoid duplication?

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

I can say yes, but I will ask Corinne to give you more details about that.

[Corinne Charette]

About your first point, the RDF format, I want to mention that it is still in development. It allows networking of data sets between various portals. It requires a lot of work. Within our open data initiative in Canada, we work with provinces and municipalities to allow for a joint search across many portals. We plan to use the RDF format, although not right away, but at some point.

[Anne-Marie Day, NDP, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Because in the context of the charter, Canada committed, in particular, to having universal and accessible data.

[Corinne Charette]

The data is accessible, but the RDF format allows automatic pairing, which requires a lot of classification. We have to make sure to do the right pairing between data sets from various jurisdictions, and avoid mixing data in a way that would not respect the data's integrity or accuracy. We have to think about it a lot. We are talking here about the notion of semantic Web. We are working on these issues, but it will happen further down the road.

About duplications, in the context of the open data initiative in Canada, we work with municipalities. We want to promote portals that use the same licence as us, and common data sets so that this can be truly implemented within a year.

Our colleagues from the provinces and territories, and also from the municipalities, show a lot of good will. There has been significant progress. Data from municipalities is most accessible by citizens because it relates directly to services they use daily. By contrast, data sets available at the federal level, even though they are very important for Canadians, relate less directly to the services they receive. That is why the municipal portals are very popular.

[The Chair, NDP, Pierre-Luc Dusseault]

Thank you. Unfortunately, I must interrupt you.

I thank once again the President of the Treasury Board for being here today for our study on open data. I am sure that committee members greatly appreciated it.

We will now break for a few minutes before welcoming two more officials from your department.

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, NDP, Pierre-Luc Dusseault]

We will now continue our meeting and come back to questions from committee members.

Mr. Trottier, you have the floor for five minutes.