Government Operations Committee on May 5th, 2014

[Bernard Trottier, Conservative, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

We've had several presentations from various stakeholders in the world of open data. A few have said that the focus shouldn't be so much on the applications. I know there was the appathon, or some call it the hackathon, which is a source of value. But a lot of witnesses have said that one of the main sources of value associated with open data is just reducing some of the administrative overhead and friction in people's day-to-day lives.

Even within the same level of government, being able to get some data immediately, as opposed to putting together a formal request for data, somebody processing that request and then waiting a few days, the efficiency of government can be improved. The efficiency for people waiting to receive data can also be improved.

Can you comment on that? Are there things that you see with open data that are driving those kinds of efficiencies, both on the giving as well as on the receiving end of open data?

[Stephen Walker, Senior Director, Information Management Strategies, Chief Information Officer Branch, Treasury Board Secretariat]

Certainly it's a really good point. One of the witnesses, David Eaves, I think, talked pretty significantly about this when he was here.

It's important to be able to associate the benefits of open data far beyond just what the economic impact might be in the first place, the social impact specifically.

One of the most popular data sets currently that we make available has to do with new arrivals to Canada. Municipalities require this data in order to develop their own settlement services and provide supports locally. If they had to figure out how to develop that data themselves, they wouldn't have it in time to have supports available to those newcomers.

In other areas, I think that oftentimes the data is being provided in a non-formatted version so that it can be reused for many different things; it doesn't come with a preconceived notion of what the user is trying to get out of it. I think one data set could support the development of multiple uses, as opposed to the single use that we originally developed the data for. We have to be careful about making sure that when we make the data available, we don't preconfigure it to look like what we planned on using it for in the first place.

In terms of making it easier for individuals or intermediaries to use that data, to factor that data into other data that we don't have and don't own in order to be able to provide new services, especially services which are research oriented, social benefit oriented, logistical analysis oriented, these are things that go far beyond just the capacity to drive economic value.

[Bernard Trottier, Conservative, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

Were you a participant, or an observer, I suppose, at the recent CODE, Canadian Open Data Experience?

[Stephen Walker]

I was, yes.

[Bernard Trottier, Conservative, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

With any of the applications that were developed, did people see economic potential behind those applications? Was there a sense that there is a market?

Let's say that people spend a dollar each, or whatever it is, to download an application. Is there a sense that there's a real market and some real opportunities in selling some of these applications to users out there?

[Stephen Walker]

It was an interesting event. It was the first one we'd ever done.

As the minister said, the response was overwhelming and unexpected to us. The feeling of entrepreneurial pursuit was rampant right across the event. There were a lot of teams there, thinking about how to build the next application, how to get a new tool available on iPhones, at 99¢ a shot. There were a lot of other teams that were there, like one of the eventual winners, who I think now is thinking about it economically. They didn't set out to develop an app that was going to provide them with a return on investment; they were looking at a tool which might provide assistance and support to other Canadians.

Some of this, I think, is driven by a sense of innovation, which does not necessarily have to be attached to profit. I think we saw the full gamut at CODE. Across the 110 teams, there were people who were specifically looking for the next silver bullet in terms of apps, right to organizations that had no interest beyond social benefits.

[The Chair, NDP, Pierre-Luc Dusseault]

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Trottier.

Mr. Byrne now has the floor.

[Gerry Byrne, Liberal, Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL]

My question will be directed to Mr. Adamson.

Mr. Adamson, Mr. O'Connor raised a question about advertising. Mr. O'Connor's belief is that advertising plays an important role in getting open data and data.gc.ca active in people's lives, I think Mr. O'Connor is correct. There is a role to play here.

The minister's comment in reply to Mr. O'Connor was that it's not the government's job to advertise open data, that it's the job of the app creators to do that, if I'm paraphrasing correctly.

If you apply that logic, Treasury Board should not allow any advertising of tax relief for Canadians through the economic action plan; it actually should be H&R Block and TurboTax that do the advertising. I think that we would agree that's probably not the best way to get your information.

Why are we not advertising this program and this initiative? We have a multi-million dollar advertising program within the Government of Canada and for the minister's statement to be that it's inappropriate to use those resources to fund an initiative that the government itself claims to be a hallmark initiative of openness and transparency, there is a disconnect there.

Could you explain, Mr. Adamson, why we're not engaging in an advertising campaign to use some of those resources to get this initiative a little bit further along?

[Dave Adamson, Deputy Chief Information Officer, Treasury Board Secretariat]

The Government of Canada undertakes promotional activities, but we don't advertise for everything. I'm not sure that this isn't a question more for the president than for me.

[Gerry Byrne, Liberal, Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL]

As the deputy chief information officer with a role to play in open data, what do you intend to do to promote open data within government to the Canadian people?

[Dave Adamson]

Can I ask you to take this?

[Stephen Walker]

There are a variety of activities that we can undertake to promote the existence of the open data portal, even the existence of our partner portals within other jurisdictions.

The minister talked about the most successful promotional activity to date, which was CODE. This brought profile to data.gc.ca that we had not seen before, and the impact has been immediate in terms of awareness of this site in general.

We're also going to move forward with a second round of round table discussions right across the country in five cities, bringing in open data users, non-open data users, academics, business, and municipal public servants, all of whom, of course—which I think the minister was referring to—have access to a broader network. We promote it that way.

There is a social media communications plan in development in support of open data as well, and in fact in support of all the open government activities.

[Gerry Byrne, Liberal, Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL]

In terms of the forthcoming directive on open data, when do you anticipate it would be forthcoming?

[Stephen Walker]

Currently, the plan for the directive is to be issued later this summer.

[Gerry Byrne, Liberal, Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL]

What would the key elements be to the directive on open data in terms of a positive requirement for government departments and agencies to be able to report open data?

[Stephen Walker]

There are a few. It is a draft directive at this point and it has not been approved, so I'll be speaking to draft requirements.

As Corinne Charette mentioned, the primary requirement is that first we will have to know what data exists comprehensively across the government. Departments will be required to complete data inventories—

[Gerry Byrne, Liberal, Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL]

Mr. Walker, perhaps I could interrupt because I am limited in time.

Notwithstanding your inventory, which obviously has to be completed, it does not impact the second element of this which is that regardless of what the inventory includes, you will still have to determine the requirements that federal agencies and departments will have to report.

Could you outline what those requirements would be?

[Stephen Walker]

There are a few more. All departments will be required to publish all data that is not subject to privacy, confidentiality, conflict of interest.

[Gerry Byrne, Liberal, Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL]

For example, VIA Rail would have to report their off schedules. VIA Rail would report things when the train is off schedule. They collect that data, and they'll have to report it on open data.

[Stephen Walker]

It's a good point. The policy will be applied to schedule 1 and 2 organizations, not crown corporations.

[The Chair, NDP, Pierre-Luc Dusseault]

Thank you.

I must interrupt you, Mr. Byrne.

Ms. Ablonczy now has the floor for five minutes.

[Diane Ablonczy, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

I have just some short snappers, I think.

First of all, has Treasury Board considered creating databases that users could contribute to?

[Stephen Walker]

The answer is yes. I think most of the major portals internationally are considering it. None of them has done it yet. I think we're along with them. We're working dedicatedly with both the U.S. and the U.K. now. All of us are trying to figure out how to meet security conditions and privacy conditions, when what you're really doing is you're publishing a federal data set, in our case. Users are adding to it, data from other areas, so it's no longer just our data. We no longer own that data set. Then they want to republish it, via us, back out to the world. Does it still fall under the open government licence that we have? Who's responsible for the quality of that data? Those are the concerns that jurisdictions have, but we're working together to try to figure it out.

[Diane Ablonczy, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

That sounds reasonable. As you're doing this, do you talk with public servants and other departments? Part of what you're trying to do, I think, is improve efficiency within the federal government. Is there any forum where this is being discussed, or moved forward?

[Stephen Walker]

There is a variety. As Corinne mentioned already, we've established 50 open data coordinators across the federal government. There is an open data coordinator in over 50 of the departments that we're working with currently.