Evidence of meeting #26 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was sets.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Bill Joyce  Director, Operations Branch, Statistics Canada
Pierre Ferland  Chief Information Officer, Chief Information Office and Security Branch, Department of Natural Resources
Prashant Shukle  Director General, Canadian Centre for Remote Sensing – Geomatics Canada, Earth Sciences Sector, Department of Natural Resources
Ümit Kiziltan  Director General, Research and Evaluation, Department of Citizenship and Immigration Canada
Guylaine Montplaisir  Chief Information Officer, Corporate Services, Department of Health
Richard Thivierge  Director General, Business and Systems Architecture and Deputy Chief Information Officer, Department of Transport
Brent Diverty  Vice President, Programs, Canadian Institute for Health Information
Yves Béland  Director General, Operations Branch, Statistics Canada

May 15th, 2014 / 9:30 a.m.

Director General, Research and Evaluation, Department of Citizenship and Immigration Canada

Ümit Kiziltan

For us, we started publishing quarterly data before the open data came into being. Then when the open data became available as another venue, the current 37 tables that we have there, they are on open data. Five of them are also published on CIC's website. The same information is published at about the same time, and we don't see any problem or any conflict between those two venues at the same time.

9:35 a.m.

Chief Information Officer, Corporate Services, Department of Health

Guylaine Montplaisir

For us at Health Canada, there are some data sets right now that are duplicated. They are typically the older ones. However, as we move forward towards renewing our websites, towards a healthy Canadian website, we will focus our effort and put the data on the data.gc.ca website and leave the other site to publish information.

9:35 a.m.

Director General, Business and Systems Architecture and Deputy Chief Information Officer, Department of Transport

Richard Thivierge

For Transport Canada, basically it is an additional channel. At this point we have not removed things or data sets that were available on our own website. So there is, to some extent, some duplication. It's an additional channel.

9:35 a.m.

Vice President, Programs, Canadian Institute for Health Information

Brent Diverty

I don't think the question is applicable to us.

9:35 a.m.

NDP

Mathieu Ravignat NDP Pontiac, QC

This question is for Mr. Joyce. We heard Tuesday that there's quite an absence of data surrounding two groups on the open portal: aboriginal people and seniors.

I'd like to ask you why you think that might be the case.

9:35 a.m.

Director, Operations Branch, Statistics Canada

Bill Joyce

Mr. Chair, I would like to thank the member for the question.

Statistics Canada does publish data on aboriginal peoples and on seniors, as well. These data are made available, made discoverable, through the open data portal.

I can't, from my perspective, address the wider question of data availability in that larger sense. My role within the agency is to think about the standard aggregate data that we have to publish for the broader community, and to make sure that those data are available in machine-readable formats.

One thing we will be doing in the future has to do with how, in some cases, data is wrapped up in publication format. It might be a PDF. It might be an HTML version of web language on the Statistics Canada website. Those data sources may not be downloadable. So there may be some cases where data is contained in publication format, which is not really a technically open format.

One of our next steps as an agency is to review those publications and make sure those data sources become open, machine readable, and downloadable.

9:35 a.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Pierre-Luc Dusseault

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Ravignat.

It is now Mr. Trottier's turn for five minutes.

9:35 a.m.

Conservative

Bernard Trottier Conservative Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for joining us this morning.

I want to talk about this study that we've done and kind of give you a sense of why you're here today.

We started with customers—if you're ever trying to solve a business problem, that's a good place to start—and asked Canadians and representatives of different users of data what they'd be looking for. Then we did a scan around the world. What are other countries doing? What are other levels of government doing? Then we thought we'd end with our own government departments and get a sense of whether we are making good progress when it comes to open data.

What we've heard is that it's very important to have some raw data so that researchers and data experts can do things with the data, but also to have some synthesized data. Regular people on the street need to be able to access data also, and if there are some kinds of syntheses that different departments can do, that's very helpful. Also, because of all the data sets, hundreds or even thousands of data sets, there has to be some kind of search capability that regular lay-users can use to find out where that important data is.

There has also been mention of the billions or trillions of economic opportunity. A lot of that is actually savings in government, that actually opening data drives efficiencies in the sense of different people within government sharing data amongst themselves. If it's open data, you don't have to make expensive requests. It also makes it cheaper and more effective for Canadians to access data. It also drives really important benefits when it comes to decision making. Whether it's investments, or health, or safety information, it simply drives benefits. So there's unanimity that open data is a good idea. Nobody says open data is a bad idea.

My questions are more of a practical nature. We're trying to provide some recommendations to the Treasury Board, which is spearheading this initiative. There's a sense that these different open data initiatives are happening in each of your departments and all doing good work. Do you sense...? This is more of a polling question and maybe we'll go in the same order in which you made your presentations. Do you sense there's a need for more intervention from a centralized agency to do a horizontal initiative across your departments, whether it's Treasury Board or Shared Services Canada, if there were a role for a central coordinator of an open data initiative? Or are you better off doing it within each of your departmental verticals?

We want to get there. It's how can we get there with higher quality and more quickly. It's that kind of program management approach. What do you think would be the better way to achieve that result of trying to get to more open data?

9:40 a.m.

Director, Operations Branch, Statistics Canada

Bill Joyce

Mr. Chair, from my perspective I would say that the options are not mutually exclusive. We, as an agency, have a duty to support the principles of open data in our ongoing publishing activities, but there is obviously value in a pan-governmental approach in which there is a certain coordination, where certain directives are in place. It holds us accountable and it allows a common approach. The end user of data may be using Statistics Canada data one day and data from Health Canada or Transport on another day, so obviously some consistency, from my perspective, is a good idea.

9:40 a.m.

Conservative

Bernard Trottier Conservative Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON

Okay, thank you.

9:40 a.m.

Director General, Canadian Centre for Remote Sensing – Geomatics Canada, Earth Sciences Sector, Department of Natural Resources

Prashant Shukle

From the geospatial data component, we were certainly working very closely with Treasury Board. I mentioned earlier the Federal Committee on Geomatics and Earth Observations, which is a government-wide approach to looking at the horizontal coordination of our geospatial data and information and which is, by and large, open. We are looking at business models that look at particular forms of efficiency. We're guided by the mantra of build once, use many times. In terms of our search capabilities, we're working closely with Treasury Board to also implement the mantra of search once and find everything.

We know now that technology allows us to do that. We also know that there is a collaborative will within the federal government to work together. I think that the strategic review process and the strategic and operating reviews have forced departments to think about how it is they work together, and as a result, the efficiencies and the strategic retargeting of how it is you do business has forced us to come together in more effective and efficient business models. I think the work of the 21 departments that have come together as the Federal Committee on Geomatics and Earth Observations is a critical example of that.

The work we've done at NRCan also speaks to a business model that we implemented back in 1999 with the provinces and territories. We have the Canadian Council on Geomatics. Canada has always had a leadership role in geomatics, so we work together collaboratively with 13 governments, provinces and territories, to share geospatial data in open and collaborative ways.

We have a GeoConnections program at NRCan. That program is responsible for international and national geospatial standards and ensuring that there is vendor neutrality, technological interoperability as well as data interoperability, and we've been given a cabinet mandate. I believe it was Minister Paradis that reannounced the program back in 2011, if I'm not mistaken. I can check that fact for you.

9:40 a.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Pierre-Luc Dusseault

Mr. Trottier, I am going to ask you to wrap it up to give the others a chance to respond.

9:40 a.m.

Conservative

Bernard Trottier Conservative Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON

I want to get a sense of that horizontal versus a vertical approach to—

9:40 a.m.

Director General, Canadian Centre for Remote Sensing – Geomatics Canada, Earth Sciences Sector, Department of Natural Resources

Prashant Shukle

We have both. We have horizontal and vertical. We're drilling down into the very specific component, and there is a horizontal approach. We're already working with Treasury Board on it.

9:40 a.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Pierre-Luc Dusseault

Does anyone else have anything to add?

9:40 a.m.

Chief Information Officer, Corporate Services, Department of Health

Guylaine Montplaisir

On our end, we can really see the benefits of a horizontal approach.

Certainly from our perspective, a common approach and standards across the board are called for. As well, multi-level information-sharing agreements that would contain clear terms and conditions in line with the open data licensing agreement.... It would be a huge enabler from our perspective if the different health partners, whether they be provinces, territories, or other health partners that we deal with, would share the same rules. Then it would be easier to all fulfill our own role in terms of open data.

9:45 a.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Pierre-Luc Dusseault

Thank you.

Anyone else have anything to add?

Mr. Kiziltan, please go ahead.

9:45 a.m.

Director General, Research and Evaluation, Department of Citizenship and Immigration Canada

Ümit Kiziltan

Very quickly.... The way we experienced this question in CIC is that we have the internal momentum driven by efficiency searches, trying to serve our clients better, and whatnot...and also driven by Government of Canada commitments, open government.

However, having said that, we also do benefit and we do appreciate the Treasury Board guidance, in terms of policy expectations, format, consistencies that aren't technical consistencies, and their support in terms of guiding us towards perhaps more preferred or more popular data requests.

I think that in that role, they, too, support each other very strongly.

9:45 a.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Pierre-Luc Dusseault

It is now Ms. Michaud's turn for five minutes.

9:45 a.m.

NDP

Élaine Michaud NDP Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I also want to thank each of the witnesses for their presentation.

My questions are for Mr. Joyce and Mr. Béland.

This is my first time on this committee, and I think the study the committee has undertaken is very useful. I am glad to see so much focus on data accessibility and the principle of open data.

I had a quick look at the G8 Open Data Charter, as well as Canada's action plan for implementation and the principles set out by the charter. Beyond the technical side of accessibility, the charter indicates that quality information should be released in quantity and should be usable by all. I think that gives rise to a number of questions.

Let's consider, for example, what is happening at Statistics Canada right now. The government made a decision to get rid of the long form census. Just recently, Mr. Ferguson, the Auditor General, criticized the removal of data from the 2011 National Household Survey. In fact, 25% of the country's geographic areas were stripped of access to reliable data on their own communities. No one has even mentioned the potential impact on special groups who need that information. First nations and official language minority communities are two that come to mind. Some of my colleagues at the table today have no doubt repeatedly heard these same arguments in the Standing Committee on Official Languages.

How can your agency adhere to the principles set out in the government's action plan if you are stripped of the tools you need to provide reliable data to those who want and need it?

I'd like to hear your comments on that.

9:45 a.m.

Director, Operations Branch, Statistics Canada

Bill Joyce

With respect, my role in Statistics Canada is to lead the dissemination program. I'm not able to address the specific issues relating to the exact nature or the funding questions relating to the specific statistical programs within our agency.

When we publish data from the variety of our statistical programs, including from the census and from the national household survey, we look at questions of data quality and it is my role to ensure that we present those data in the most open format possible. It's my role to promote greater access to the standard data.

9:45 a.m.

NDP

Élaine Michaud NDP Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC

Beyond the technical dimension, Statistics Canada must have received feedback from users decrying the fact that the data is limited in its use.

Could you send us the feedback you have received in that regard?

9:45 a.m.

Director, Operations Branch, Statistics Canada

Bill Joyce

I can note the question, but I am not able to respond to that type of question today. I do not have that information with me.

9:45 a.m.

NDP

Élaine Michaud NDP Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC

Could you promptly send it to the committee?

I think every committee member would benefit from knowing how the lack of reliable data is really impacting users.

9:45 a.m.

Director, Operations Branch, Statistics Canada

Bill Joyce

I will certainly note the question, and we will bring it back to the organization.