Evidence of meeting #27 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 41st Parliament, 2nd session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was bridge.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Bernard Trottier Conservative Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON
When I look at the debt payments compared to those from 20 and 30 years ago, they're actually quite small as a percentage of the overall budget.
Do you know what the percentage is for debt service charges compared to the overall federal government budget right now? I think it's in the 10% to 12% range.
Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat
I'll have to check that, but I can get that to you before we leave today.
What I will say about the public debt surcharge is that it is a function of two things. One is the size of the liability, and the other is the actual interest rate itself. We are dealing with an environment of low interest rates, and the government debt did begin to go back up through the economic action plan. Now, as you know, they're taking measures to go back into surplus, and that will eventually have an impact on the debt as well.
Conservative
Bernard Trottier Conservative Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON
The two major bridge projects you talked about—the Detroit River bridge crossing and the Champlain Bridge—I know fall under the Ministry of Transport. These are major investments. What kind of measures is Treasury Board taking to make sure the funds are there when they're needed? We're talking about spending multiple billions of dollars on these bridges.
There has to be some kind of contingency fund set up. There are estimates, but when you get into variables like geo-technical considerations and so on, you end up spending extra hundreds of millions of dollars.
What kind of measures is the government taking to make sure the funds are there to build these bridges?
Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat
The way government expenditure management actually works—and you're right that these are very complex projects—there are preliminary estimates based on plans, and then as plans firm up, you will actually be able to nail down, to a much greater extent, the costs.
At this stage, those projects involve things like engineering studies, relocation of utilities, and acquisition of the land that will be needed to put those in place. We're in the early days, for sure, and as time goes on, you'll see ways to actually nail down the costs to a much greater extent.
On some of its larger projects, the government does indeed have a practice of putting contingency funds in place, but when we talk about what's being voted by Parliament, it's the expected amount that will be spent during the fiscal year, so you won't see a contingency plan voted by Parliament unless it's needed for some reason.
What you're seeing here are the funds that those organizations plan on spending this year based on the planned work for the current fiscal year.
Conservative
Bernard Trottier Conservative Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON
Okay.
Do I have time, Mr. Chair?
My last question is on the infrastructure fund. Why is there a supplementary estimate (A) of $142 million for the infrastructure fund, which you talked about? My understanding is that there is an envelope of funds created, and then the various provinces and municipalities have to apply against that fund. So why are there a supplementary estimate (A)?
Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat
Is there a page reference?
Conservative
Bernard Trottier Conservative Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON
On slide 7 there is $142 million that you talked about under Infrastructure Canada.
Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat
I'll have Marcia correct me if I'm wrong, but there are really two components there, the national infrastructure piece as well as the provincial-territorial piece. That is a fund in which there are two elements, as I mentioned, the national piece as well as the provincial-territorial piece. That is essentially based on what the department is planning on flowing out this year. The money will flow out this year, but I can't say for which projects at this stage. It's planned under the two components.
NDP
The Chair NDP Pierre-Luc Dusseault
Thank you, Mr. Trottier.
Mrs. Day, go ahead. You have five minutes.
NDP
Anne-Marie Day NDP Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
My thanks to the witnesses for joining us today. It is always nice to hear you talk about budgets.
Clearly, my questions will have to do primarily with the Champlain Bridge.
The Champlain Bridge is the busiest bridge in Canada and the biggest project listed. So it is important to spend a moment on it. The superbeam was supposed to be installed recently. However, there is a delay of two weeks. We are now hearing May 31 and June 1.
In terms of the traffic, the light rail transit system would be the best choice. However, there is also talk about a bus rapid transit system that would carry 50 passengers every 12 seconds, which is huge and impossible to do. Otherwise, the forecast for the future is that the number of cars travelling between the south shore and Montreal will double.
How do we ensure that our funds are wisely spent on the Champlain Bridge? How do you handle that? What oversight standards are in place to avoid cost overruns?
Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat
Thank you for your question.
There are two items about the Champlain Bridge in supplementary estimates (A).
There are funds for the ongoing maintenance, but I believe your question relates to the replacement of the bridge. As to what is the best choice for a new bridge, you'd be better putting those questions to a transportation expert—and that's not me.
In terms of the plans, originally the bridge had been scheduled to be replaced by 2021. That has been advanced to 2018 because of the deterioration of the bridge itself.
You're quite right about the crossings. There are somewhere between 45 million to 50 million crossings per year. There is ongoing maintenance work that is scheduled to extend the life of the current bridge and ensure that it remains safe until its replacement is put in place.
With regard to monitoring, the best vehicle is this. The bridge is managed by Jacques Cartier and Champlain Bridges Incorporated. You can look at the performance report of that organization, the annual plan, and things like that, to actually see what they were allocated in terms of spending and then what they actually spent. If you're looking for a vehicle to monitor, that's a very good vehicle to actually monitor the spending, so I would suggest that to you.
In budget 2014 we did allocate $378 million over two years for the bridge. What you're seeing here is $253.6 million related to the bridge corporation in supplementary estimates (A), so that's the first piece of that two-year announcement in budget 2014.
NDP
Anne-Marie Day NDP Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC
What is the funding allocated for the temporary causeway that will replace the Nuns' Island Bridge and be in service in 2015?
Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat
Jacques Cartier and Champlain Bridges Incorporated has responsibility for numerous pieces of infrastructure. I can speak to their overall budget. As for the actual breakdown of what gets spent on which piece of infrastructure, those questions would be better posed to that organization, because I don't have that information, I'm sorry.
What you're dealing with there, meaning the infrastructure they're responsible for, is the Champlain Bridge, which you've mentioned already, and the related ice control structure. You're quite right that a temporary bridge is being built to replace Nuns' Island Bridge, and is scheduled to be in place by 2015. There is also the Honoré-Mercier Bridge, the federal piece of that, the Bonaventure Expressway, Highway 15, and the Melocheville Tunnel. All those pieces are the big pieces of that corporation.
NDP
Anne-Marie Day NDP Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC
Could you tell me what amount in the supplementary estimates (A) will be allocated to the temporary repairs of the Jacques-Cartier Bridge?
Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat
I can tell you that the total amount is $253.6 million in the supplementary (A)s, but it's for that corporation and I can't give you details about how much will be spent on each one. Unfortunately, we don't have that. Those are their pieces of infrastructure, and they do maintenance on all of them. So I would assume that a big piece of the $253.6 million is for Champlain Bridge, but I can't say for sure what the breakdown is.
NDP
The Chair NDP Pierre-Luc Dusseault
Thank you.
Thank you, Mrs. Day. Your time is up.
I will now give the floor to Mr. O'Connor for five minutes.
Gordon O'Connor Carleton—Mississippi Mills, CPC
It says here that Atomic Energy is going to get $195 million to meet their commitment to provide medical isotopes to, probably, an organization like Nordion. But Nordion pays for this, and I don't know if there are other customers, but they pay for it too. This $195 million is not a loss to the government. They're just operating it and they give it away free?
Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat
To the best of my knowledge those isotopes are indeed sold. The $195 million is not just for the isotopes production. It does relate to that, but it also relates to the ongoing work to remediate the assets at Chalk River Laboratories. So the isotopes production is one piece, but there's also some ongoing work related to the infrastructure that's going on as well. Those are the two pieces in there and I don't have the split between the two. I don't have a sense of the revenue source related to isotopes either.
Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat
I believe they do sell them. I just can't speak to what the dollar values are.
Carleton—Mississippi Mills, CPC
The other question is along the same topic. Natural Resources also wants $195 million to basically clear up their liabilities for pollution, etc. Do we have an idea of the extent of nuclear pollution, how much is involved?
Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat
We do. The $195 million is related to current year activity only. If you looked in the Public Accounts of Canada—I'm going to use the March 31, 2013 numbers—you'd see liabilities related to environmental liabilities for contaminated sites, as well as what we call “asset restoration activities”, which include AECL, of around $10.6 billion. The AECL piece of that is about $5.7 billion. That's kind of the amount that's been set aside for the liability for the asset remediation related to nuclear contamination related to AECL. That's the current estimate.
Carleton—Mississippi Mills, CPC
So this will go on for many years paying off at a rate of $195 million.
Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat
Yes, and $195 million is what they expect to spend this year. It will be, I expect, a fairly lumpy profile over the years.
Carleton—Mississippi Mills, CPC
Okay.
One other thing is the bridges in Montreal. I understand that our proposal is to go to tolls, which I'm not opposed to, but I'm old enough to remember the corruption at the Jacques Cartier Bridge and the tolls. Some lady owned apartment blocks from having worked on the toll bridge and having kept creaming money off the tolls, as other people did too. Are we assured that when we bring in tolls that we'll have a system that's fool proof so people can't steal the money?