Government Operations Committee on May 29th, 2014

[Mark Adler, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

You have 10 seconds.

[Pablo Sobrino]

—would continue on but as time passed those standards would start to deteriorate in the sense that they would not be necessarily monitored—

[Mark Adler, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

The national standards?

[Pablo Sobrino]

No, the CGSB standards, the ones that we are responsible for and we update on a cyclical basis. They would deteriorate over time because you're not—

[Mark Adler, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

But those are international standards aren't they?

[Pablo Sobrino]

No, they are our own standards.

[Mark Adler, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

But before you said you didn't set standards.

[Pablo Sobrino]

We bring committees together that set the standards for the CGSB, that get the CGSB label.

[Mark Adler, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

They wouldn't come together on their own if you didn't bring them together?

[Pablo Sobrino]

They have to be certified and to get their certification they would have to be organized to do that. It's the Standards Council of Canada's role to ensure that the body is actually putting in the discipline in the process to ensure that the process is followed. That's what we do. We ensure that the process is in place.

[The Chair, NDP, Pierre-Luc Dusseault]

Thank you. I have to stop you here.

[Pablo Sobrino]

The cycling that would disappear is the certification side. So we wouldn't be certifying products that met the standard. That's the other piece.

[The Chair, NDP, Pierre-Luc Dusseault]

Thank you.

Mr. Easter, you have five minutes.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

In terms of retail sales like, say, at Canadian Tire or Home Hardware, and as an example I'll use bicycle helmets, are they obligated to only sell CSA standard approved helmets, or can they sell whatever and it's just that if the standard is there the consumer should know that it is certified and therefore meets certain standards? Is that the way it works?

[Pablo Sobrino]

I'll use a personal example.

My daughter plays ringette. The ringette association, for their insurance purposes, requires that I buy her a CSA-approved helmet. They actually tell you that she's not allowed on the ice without a CSA-approved helmet. It is there to make sure they meet their insurance requirements, which require protective gear to be certified protective gear.

It's really a mark for the consumer who can go to Canadian Tire.... Presumably, a CSA-approved helmet might cost a bit more than one that has no certification, but in fact it will be most of them. In the case of helmets, no one sells a helmet that doesn't offer that certification, but that's exactly it. It's really to inform the consumer that you have a product that has met a certain standard for protection.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

If you do a comparison, like the standards on packaging and everything else, a standard is kind of a guideline versus a patent or an industrial design certification, which are enforceable.

[Pablo Sobrino]

Generally, the standards are quite precise, in terms of what it takes to meet the standard. It could be things like chemical composition, or its ability to take on specific loads. They're supposed to be objective, performance-based, so you're able to actually test them independently. That's kind of the main role the standard plays.

The idea is to have an objective, performance-based statement of how a product should behave for a specific outcome. That's fundamentally what the standard is for.

That's what makes it useful, for instance, in reference to regulation. If you do regulate something and say we want the standard.... If you got into the specifics, that it can't break with less than so many kilograms of force, all that stuff, in regulation that would become very difficult to put together. By referencing it to a standard...the CGSB standard for patio doors, for instance, is ensuring that the patio door meets all the standards. If you accidentally step into a patio door, it shatters in a particular way that reduces harm, those kinds of things. Those things are all specified so you can actually test to see that the patio door meets that standard.

So it's a very specific piece. It's not meant to be easy to get through.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

I believe Desmond wants to come in as well. But in terms of the testing, who handles that testing? I mean, we all see on TV crash tests of cars and so on and so forth. Who covers the cost of that testing to determine what a product will withstand?

[Desmond Gray]

I'll take the example of the bicycle helmets as a good one.

For example, CSA runs a certification program. Let's say you're a manufacturer and you decided that suddenly you're in the market and you want to start manufacturing a bicycle helmet, a new innovation, but you want to have it certified. You would apply to CSA and say you were interested in having your product certified. There are certain requirements; you'll have to demonstrate, provide samples, provide documentation.

CSA has their own laboratories. They will test it. Of course, you will pay a fee for the actual application of the process. Then, as far as I understand it, you will then pay a per-unit fee as well, in terms of the application of the certification once you've achieved it, but there's an ongoing requirement to maintain your certification, to have regular tests and submissions to the CSA.

I want to go back to your other question because you raised the.... If you go into the marketplace today in Canada, you can see bicycle helmets certified by CSA; by ASTM, which is the American Society for Testing and Materials; for BSI, the British Standards Institution; because in the world, of course, it's an international market and manufacturers want to have accessibility to global markets. The notion of having multiple certifications, or a single equivalency, where if I get certified in Canada I can then go to the United States or go to the United Kingdom and have my product certified, these are more and more serious considerations for businesses, how they do that. Again, to instill confidence but without overly onerous long and complex processes.

The nice thing about this is that there is an ongoing process globally, economically, through the International Accreditation Forum, and other international bodies, to work toward mutual acceptance of certification marks.

[The Chair, NDP, Pierre-Luc Dusseault]

Thank you, Mr. Easter. Your time is up.

I now yield the floor to Mr. Woodworth for five minutes.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Welcome.

Thank you for coming to our committee today.

I am in the awkward position of having questions that seem to me to cry out and to be obvious questions that no one has asked, so I don't know if I have missed something, and you'll have to forgive me. I will try to keep my questions brief, and ask you for brief answers, because of the time limitations we have here.

First, has the Canadian General Standards Board ever been the subject in 80 years to a study by a parliamentary committee?

[Pablo Sobrino]

No, no one can remember one.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

All right.

So, this is a semi-historical event.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Pablo Sobrino]

Fitting for our 80th year, yes....