Evidence of meeting #44 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 41st Parliament, 2nd session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was commissioner.
A video is available from Parliament.
Interim Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner of Canada
Pardon me?
NDP
Tarik Brahmi NDP Saint-Jean, QC
In your previous role, did you raise that issue in order to improve the process?
Interim Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner of Canada
Yes.
NDP
Tarik Brahmi NDP Saint-Jean, QC
Can you give us any other examples of initiatives you have undertaken, personally?
Interim Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner of Canada
Yes. I wanted to broaden the definition of "wrongdoing", so that the person making the disclosure could share the information with everyone in the chain of command and not just their immediate supervisor. That's a restriction in the act right now. I would like to provide for more possibilities and broaden the scope of that definition, as well as others.
NDP
Tarik Brahmi NDP Saint-Jean, QC
As far as broadening the definition is concerned, do you think you would need additional funding?
Interim Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner of Canada
I don't think so. I think we could continue to do the job with our current budget.
NDP
Tarik Brahmi NDP Saint-Jean, QC
In your career, have you ever had an experience where you, personally, had to make a disclosure?
Interim Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner of Canada
Personally, I've never encountered that. But I've often had to use my dispute resolution skills to communicate with people and address my concerns informally. But, no, I have never made a disclosure of wrongdoing myself.
NDP
The Chair NDP Pat Martin
Thank you, Mr. Friday.
Thank you, Mr. Brahmi.
Next for the Conservatives is Brad Butt. You have five minutes, please, Brad.
Conservative
Brad Butt Conservative Mississauga—Streetsville, ON
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Good morning, Mr. Friday. Welcome to the committee. It's great to have you here. Congratulations on the nomination.
I know we had a brief chat prior to the committee meeting about some of the ideas you have for the office. I think that's great. I like your enthusiasm, and I think that's a credit to you and to the office you will run.
What is the staff complement in the office? How many people are working with you in the department?
Interim Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner of Canada
We currently have a staff of 25 people, not counting me in my current position of interim commissioner. The majority of those 25 are operational employees—our investigators, our case analysts, and our legal services team. My focus as interim commissioner, and I hope as commissioner, is to continue to direct our budget toward the core operations of our mandate, the heart of our raison d'etre
Conservative
Brad Butt Conservative Mississauga—Streetsville, ON
When complaints come in about the actions of our public servants, are they treated differently if they are part of a union versus non-unionized employees? Do you have to work within the confines of the collective agreement and other issues with respect to dealing with the union of which the individuals are members? Are they treated differently? Is there a role to play? How do you facilitate what I would hope is a positive working relationship with the unions as well as with the employees who are subject to the investigations?
Interim Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner of Canada
Mr. Chair, I would assure committee members that all disclosures are dealt with equally, are dealt with in the same manner, and are dealt with fairly with justice and equity in mind.
Every discloser and every reprisal complainant has the right to be assisted by whomever he or she wishes. In some cases that's legal counsel, and in some cases that's a union representative. The importance of establishing and maintaining good relationships not only with a discloser or a complainant but also with whomever is their representative is of extreme significance to us.
That's why, Mr. Chair, on our external advisory committee we currently have representatives from the Canadian Association of Professional Employees, the Association of Canadian Financial Officers, the Public Service Alliance of Canada, the Association of Professional Executives of the Public Service of Canada, and the Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada. We feel it's very important to build a community of support among both the people who would come to our office as individuals and also those organizations that can help and assist those people in making an informed decision about whether to come to our office.
I would see the role of the unions being very important in helping potential disclosers and complainants in making that kind of informed decision.
Conservative
Brad Butt Conservative Mississauga—Streetsville, ON
I think it's important that all the parties have a fair opportunity to be involved, so I like what you're saying about the approach you see your office taking in this regard.
Is there anything specifically you would change in how the current process works, as you see it, either to make it more open, transparent, or public, or on the opposite side to make sure we're protecting individuals who in some cases may have been falsely accused of something? Is there anything specific you would change in the way these investigations take place?
Interim Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner of Canada
Mr. Chair, I would say that confidentiality is a key pillar of our regime, so any changes we might consider would have confidentiality as their driving feature.
We have established timelines to allow us to hold ourselves accountable to be, as required by our legislation, as informal and expeditious as possible.
Just this month I started an initiative that I think reflects the difficulty of balancing my training as a lawyer and a journalist. But we are in the process of introducing a simpler form of language in our decision letters so that there will not be a lot of legal terms, and no more Latin terms. This is one practical example of how we are trying to make ourselves relevant on the ground.
NDP
The Chair NDP Pat Martin
Thank you, Mr. Friday.
Thank you, Mr. Butt.
Next, for the Liberal Party, the vice-chair of the committee, Mr. Gerry Byrne.
Liberal
Gerry Byrne Liberal Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL
Thanks, Mr. Chair.
I would like to acknowledge, Mr. Friday, that in looking at your resumé and biography I appreciate the fact that your excellence within the public sector is equal to your commitment to the community at large. I see that you're a strong advocate of the arts and I think that involvement is embodied across the public sector to contribute back to the community at large, so I want to acknowledge that and say how much we appreciate it.
Mr. Friday, there was a mix-up with your appearance here and I don't want to belabour the point, but I would say that there was some confusion as to whether or not you should appear some days ago, and you came to a conclusion that you should not.
Did you receive any advice outside of your office on that matter? Did the Privy Council Office offer you any advice as to what capacity you would be serving here, being asked to appear before the government operations committee?
Interim Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner of Canada
Mr. Chair, I would say that the Privy Council Office has been nothing but respectful of my independence and of any decision with respect to that appearance being my own.
I will tell you that in speaking to the Privy Council Office on March 11 with respect to issues about the nomination procedure—just factual issues—it was at that moment I realized that I was actually not the nominee. I had not been told I wasn't or that I was. I think that's a demonstration of the complete neutrality that I have been the beneficiary of, or subject to.
With respect to my absence on March 12, I received no advice as to what to do or what not to do, from anybody. Those were based on internal discussions based on my understanding or my misunderstanding of the purpose of my appearance on March 11. Again, I apologize for any confusion and take full responsibility for it.
Liberal
Gerry Byrne Liberal Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL
We appreciate your frankness and openness on that.
Moving on, with that said, in terms of the independence of the office itself, there have been issues with a previous office-holder, Ms. Ouiment, whom we and you are aware of. Of course, you may be aware as well that there has never been a parliamentary committee hearing on the Auditor General's findings of Ms. Ouimet's office and the activities she did and did not partake in.
As an independent officer, would you provide advice or your own perspective to this committee? Do you feel it would be worthwhile and helpful, and would you welcome, a parliamentary committee having a look back at that situation so that we can establish best practices and learn from that situation?
Interim Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner of Canada
Mr. Chair, I'm in the hands of the committee and of Parliament with respect to what information is needed for you to be satisfied of our independence, and our professionalism, and our ability to do our work.
I believe that my predecessor, Monsieur Dion, did speak to some of the activities that he undertook, as commissioner, when he came into the office with respect to a review of closed files and reporting on those. And we did report on those in our annual report from that year.
Liberal
Gerry Byrne Liberal Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL
Mr. Friday, I apologize for interrupting, but I'll put it in this perspective. You are a whistle-blower watchdog. You are a watchdog of the public service. You're unafraid, you're uninhibited, you charge in where others would fear to go.
There has been some wrongdoing, and there has been some wrongdoing within the office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner.
Would it be your advice, would it be your consideration, would you give any perspective to this committee whatsoever as to whether or not there should be some oversight at a parliamentary committee level of that situation?
Interim Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner of Canada
Of the situation from 2010?
Liberal