Government Operations Committee on April 28th, 2015

[Joe Friday]

I am certainly aware of the letter and of that letter having been written. I have not been briefed, or haven't been briefed yet, on the current status of discussions or negotiations. When we agents of Parliament meet, which is regularly, we certainly discuss shared issues of concern. Independence is the glue that binds us together, in fact—regardless of the fact that we are independent from each other and can of course investigate each other.

[Gerry Byrne, Liberal, Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL]

Understood.

With that in mind, is there anything you'd like to bring to the table as the agent of Parliament serving as the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner? Is there anything you'd like to raise to this committee as a concern about your office's independence?

[Joe Friday]

To date, I can say with confidence that our independence has been respected, acknowledged. I would also say that the moment I felt our independence was being compromised in any way, I would have no hesitation in coming forward to the appropriate committee, or in the appropriate forum, as a member of a group of agents of Parliament or on my own. For example, under our act, I have the authority to table a special report to Parliament if on any issue I feel it is necessary and wise to do so.

The tools are certainly there to ensure that any concerns about independence are addressed.

[The Chair, NDP, Pat Martin]

Thank you, Mr. Friday. Thank you, Mr. Byrne.

That's a good note on which to wrap up that round.

Next, for the Conservatives, five minutes for Brad Butt.

[Brad Butt, Conservative, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Friday, Ms. Fraser, thank you for joining us today.

What was your caseload like in the last fiscal year? How many cases were you working on? I realize that some of these will roll over perhaps several fiscal years if they're complicated, but generally speaking, what was the caseload like in 2014-15?

[Joe Friday]

Subject to a final verification—we're in the process of doing that as we prepare to issue our annual report in June—we had 90 disclosures of wrongdoing brought to our office last year. That was a slight increase from the previous year, which was 84. We had 28 reprisal cases. That was a decrease of one from the previous year, which was 29. We had a total of 118 new cases. We launched 16 investigations. We currently have 16 investigations, as of this morning, active and under way.

Over the last three years, there has been some stability in that regard, with disclosures at between 80 or 90 and 100, and reprisals between 25 and 35. That seems to have stabilized over the last three years.

[Brad Butt, Conservative, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Okay.

Some of the cases you get involved with probably get quite complicated. There could be lawyers involved and perhaps also the unions because they're representing a member who has been accused of wrongdoing. In any of these cases, do you have any cost recovery mechanisms at all? Or within your allocated budget do you just provide the services? For example, you have to provide lawyers, investigators, etc., regardless of the outcome of the case. If an individual is found to have committed wrongdoing, and perhaps then is let go from the public service because of the seriousness of their actions, is there a cost recovery mechanism to be able to go after that individual if you've incurred costs to take on a case like that, or is that just not part of the mandate at all?

[Joe Friday]

Yes, that isn't part of the mandate. Our costs for all our investigative work are funded from our budget.

On the issue of lawyers' fees, I would like to also point out that our act specifically allows us to provide funding to people involved in a file, regardless of what side they might be on, to get legal advice with respect to either making a disclosure or being involved in an investigation. We have set up a grants and contributions programs with Treasury Board to us to fund people coming forward. We are budgeted this year for $40,000 to support that.

[Brad Butt, Conservative, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

For an individual who works for the public service or one of the crown corporations and has been accused of this wrongdoing, that person has access to funding through your office so they can retain their own counsel, or advisor, or someone that they can work with—

[Joe Friday]

That's correct.

[Brad Butt, Conservative, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

—who will give them the appropriate advice on what they should do because, of course, in our system everybody is innocent until proven guilty, right? Everybody has the right to representation. So within your funding there's some money there that can be accessed by the individual that's been accused to be able to retain some expert advice for their side?

[Joe Friday]

Yes, and not only the person accused, but also the person making the allegation or the person making a reprisal complaint. Any party involved has access to this fund. There are conditions that apply to it under the legislation, with one of the most important being that they have to satisfy us they do not otherwise have access to free legal advice.

[Brad Butt, Conservative, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Okay.

[Joe Friday]

It's administered by our legal services unit. We have a legal services group of four lawyers. They administer this program for us, do the analysis of every request, and then it's presented to me for approval.

[Brad Butt, Conservative, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Can anyone make a complaint to your office, any Canadian, or does it have to be internally done, like someone that sees wrongdoing being done by a fellow employee in the department? Can absolutely anybody make a complaint about anyone working in the public service anywhere?

[Joe Friday]

As long as the wrongdoing is in or related to the public service, the regime is open to be used, if I can put it that way, by a public servant who makes a disclosure according to a specific structure within the act. They can go internally to their own manager, internally to a special senior officer appointed under the legislation internally, or they can come externally to us. A member of the public can also come to our office with information that they believe has demonstrated that a wrong doing, as defined in or related to the public sector, has taken place. We get disclosures from members of the public. They aren't the majority of our disclosures, but, yes, Canadians can disclose wrongdoing to us.

[The Chair, NDP, Pat Martin]

Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Butt. That concludes your five minutes.

We'll go to the second round of questioning, which will be Mr. Denis Blanchette, for the NDP.

[Denis Blanchette, NDP, Louis-Hébert, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

You have nine internal services, but eight employees. That is already a challenge. Correct me if I'm wrong, but looking at all your services and the number of employees you have, I assume you often have to outsource work to meet your organization's needs.

In your internal budget, what portion of the entire budget envelope do contracts account for?

[Joe Friday]

I will ask Ms. Fraser to clarify.

[Patricia Fraser]

I think the amount is $800,000 for the staff. As for the rest, most of the contracts are with the Canadian Human Rights Commission.

[Joe Friday]

Most of the external spending goes to human resources services, information and computer resources, and financial services. We actually have to buy those services.

[Denis Blanchette, NDP, Louis-Hébert, QC]

Ms. Fraser can answer in English, since we have a simultaneous interpretation service.

[Patricia Fraser]

Merci.

For CHRC, for example, we spend approximately $325,000 on finance, compensation, and IT services. With PWGSC we spend $150,000 for human resources and the use of a human resource information system. Those would be the two largest contracts we have externally in internal services.

We also outsource our audit and evaluation. If we have internal audits done, we will contract those out because we don't have in-house internal auditors. As well, we have the cost of having an audit and evaluation committee. That is also considered part of our internal service costs.

The legal costs, when it's litigation, can be up to $100,000.

[Denis Blanchette, NDP, Louis-Hébert, QC]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Friday, are you able, with those 20 people, to process current cases and manage an increased case load? I am very impressed by the fact that your budget will not go up by a penny for three years, especially when you say you will be able to do everything—meet the need, even with inflation and whatnot. I would first like to know whether, with the 20 individuals, you can really meet all of your organization's challenges.

[Joe Friday]

I hope so, Mr. Chair.

I am very proud to say that our processes are becoming increasingly effective. We have service standards we always comply with. We currently have 25 employees, but we are very sensitive to potential changes and have some flexibility. As a result, we can change the way we use certain financial resources.