Evidence of meeting #47 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was standard.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Graham Rae Dulmage  Director, Standards Department, Government Relations Office and External Affairs, ULC Standards and Underwriters Laboratories of Canada
Jean Rousseau  Senior Director, Bureau de normalisation du Québec
Michel Girard  Vice-President, Strategy, Standards Council of Canada

11:55 a.m.

Director, Standards Department, Government Relations Office and External Affairs, ULC Standards and Underwriters Laboratories of Canada

Graham Rae Dulmage

I think they are ahead of us, because their industry drives their need to innovate. We have to change how we respond to that need.

I am actually doing a joint standard for North America, the first one ever under the RCC pilot program. It's for, oddly enough, balloon-type backwater valves to stop your house from flooding when you have leakage. That will be the first primary test of whether or not you can do this. The deadline for publication is December 2016. That's the solution we have to move to.

11:55 a.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Pat Martin

Mr. Rousseau, very briefly, would you like to respond to Ms. Young's last question?

11:55 a.m.

Senior Director, Bureau de normalisation du Québec

Jean Rousseau

Yes, absolutely.

As Mr. Dulmage said, we have to start thinking about binational standards, those developed jointly by Canada and the U.S. Agreement on standards is possible in North America. Work has been done in the area of electrical products, for example. Mr. Dulmage mentioned products related to plumbing. These are products that circulate throughout North America, and our companies have to adapt. It's important for Canada and the U.S. to have discussions, and SDOs can do that by working within established processes.

11:55 a.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Pat Martin

Thank you, Mr. Rousseau.

We're almost out of time, but I'd like to give the Liberal Party one more opportunity to ask a brief question.

Go ahead, Mr. Bélanger.

11:55 a.m.

Liberal

Mauril Bélanger Liberal Ottawa—Vanier, ON

Thank you.

There are some technologies that evolve very rapidly. How do we keep up with the norms, if the technology evolves more rapidly than the norms do? Or has that happened in the past?

Are there cases where the technology has evolved more quickly than the standard? And if so, how do you keep up?

11:55 a.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Pat Martin

We'll go to Mr. Dulmage first.

11:55 a.m.

Director, Standards Department, Government Relations Office and External Affairs, ULC Standards and Underwriters Laboratories of Canada

Graham Rae Dulmage

Let Jean go first.

11:55 a.m.

Liberal

Mauril Bélanger Liberal Ottawa—Vanier, ON

Mr. Rousseau, you may go ahead.

11:55 a.m.

Senior Director, Bureau de normalisation du Québec

Jean Rousseau

It varies from sector to sector. Take IT, for example. It's an area where change happens at a breakneck pace, and it's important to make sure that applicable standards adjust accordingly. Industry needs must dictate how frequently those standards are adjusted. That way, it's possible to take precursors like additive manufacturing and 3D technologies into account. It's a field that evolves at lightning speed, and the standards community can certainly adjust its approach to ensure that standards lead to innovation. Allow me to explain. Instead of setting specific objectives, organizations can develop performance standards rather than prescriptive ones.

And the same goes for codes. Building codes are really heading in that direction. Rather than describe something, standards describe a desired performance, providing the parameters in which businesses in the field can innovate. That's how.

11:55 a.m.

Director, Standards Department, Government Relations Office and External Affairs, ULC Standards and Underwriters Laboratories of Canada

Graham Rae Dulmage

I have this tsunami hitting me right now—alarm systems. Alarm systems are a virtual technology, and we run the main committees in Canada for alarm standards. These are hitting us big time, because as Jean said, you have to write performance standards. The performance standards, therefore, have to have metrics that can be measured carefully so that if there is an innovation, you can always address it.

One of the rules we have in our system right now, which I confess I probably wrote, is that you must have a maximum five-year cycle, and you can do only three amendments. I think it's no more than one-third of the document within that five-year cycle.

We may have to change our means to allow.... Some SDOs in the U.S. have it. They call it “continuous improvement”. We may have to do that. It goes back to the fact that we need research to back that up. We need the funding, the support, and the encouragement of the young entrepreneurs in the country to get involved and to tell us what they need to move forward.

Noon

NDP

The Chair NDP Pat Martin

Thank you to both of our witnesses for very interesting presentations.

Mr. Graham Rae Dulmage, from the Underwriters Laboratories of Canada, and Mr. Jean Rousseau, from the Bureau de normalisation du Québec, we appreciate your contributions very much.

Mr. Rousseau, thank you for the special effort you made to come back and see us again. We will benefit very much from your testimony.

We're going to suspend the meeting briefly while we thank this panel of witnesses and excuse them.

12:05 p.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Pat Martin

We'll reconvene our meeting then. We're going to welcome our next witness before our study on the Standards Council of Canada. Representing the Standards Council, we have Mr. Michel Girard, the vice-president for strategy for the organization. I'll have to let him introduce the guest he has with him because I can't read that far without my glasses.

You understand, Mr. Girard, this is a working lunch. So you'll forgive us committee members if we take advantage of this time to feed ourselves while we listen to your opening remarks.

The floor is yours, sir.

12:05 p.m.

Michel Girard Vice-President, Strategy, Standards Council of Canada

Thank you. I have with me Véronique de Passillé. Véronique is our director of government engagement at the Standards Council of Canada.

12:05 p.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Pat Martin

Very good. Welcome.

12:05 p.m.

Vice-President, Strategy, Standards Council of Canada

Michel Girard

I just hope that during my brief statement I don't cause any indigestion for committee members.

Mr. Chair, if you allow me, I will read my statement and then as you get to dessert, we'll be able to entertain questions.

On behalf of the Standards Council of Canada, I appreciate the opportunity to provide my comments on the programs and activities of the Canadian General Standards Board. As you are aware, the SCC is Canada’s national accreditation body. We accredit organizations that are in the business of developing and maintaining standards. In our lingo, we call those bodies standards development organizations, so when an organization develops standards, the acronym we use to refer to it is SDO. You'll hear me talking about SDOs. I apologize if I get into acronyms. We also accredit bodies that certify products to ensure they meet the standards. Those bodies are called conformity assessment bodies or CABs. So you have organizations that develop standards and organizations that test products according to those standards. We accredit both types of organizations at SCC. SCC, it's very important to note, does not develop standards itself, so we are not in the business of developing standards, and we do not certify products either. From that vantage point, SCC is not a competitor to the Canadian General Standards Board, CGSB. Our role is to accredit this organization when it develops standards or in a case where it certifies products. That's our relationship with CGSB.

Up until three years ago, there were only four organizations that were accredited to develop standards in Canada. One was the CGSB. That's the subject of our discussion this afternoon. Then there's the Canadian Standards Association, CSA, which is the largest one in Canada. So that's another one. You also heard Rae Dulmage earlier this morning from Underwriters' Laboratories of Canada, ULC; and Monsieur Rousseau from the BNQ. So those are the four organizations that we accredited previously. Since 2012 the number of SCC-accredited bodies to develop standards has been expanded to eight. So now we accredit eight organizations. The additional organizations include the American Society for Testing and Materials, ASTM. It's a very large U.S.-based organization with hundreds of standards being used across Canada. There is Underwriters' Laboratories, UL; the Air Conditioning, Heating, and Refrigeration Institute, AHRI; and the last one recently, the National Sanitation Foundation, NSF, which is in the business of developing standards for water quality and testing. I will explain the impact of this important development in a few minutes.

In order to maintain SCC accreditation, all SDOs must follow a standards development process that we have developed and are maintaining. This process is based on internationally accepted guidelines. It is in compliance with the Code of Good Practice from the World Trade Organization. In a few words, it promotes the open, transparent, and inclusive standards development process. The SDOs that we accredit must establish standards development committees that consist of a balanced matrix of representatives from affected stakeholders. That's one thing. The second thing is that committee members are selected based on their ability to represent a combination of interests and expertise. No single group in our committee structure can dominate the agenda or decide the outcome. A balanced matrix of interests means a balance between regulators and industry, consumers and academics, so that you come to a consensus when you develop a standard.

One important aspect of our process is that—and you heard it this morning—the developer of the standards is required to assess the need for revisions at least every five years. If that needs to be done more frequently, then the SDOs will do that. This is an important feature of the standards development process. In response to technological change, health and safety, and market conditions, many standards are under almost constant review and revision.

I want to talk to you about trends regarding standardization in the country, which impact CGSB, consumers, and regulators.

Over the past decade, we have seen a clear shift from developing and using domestic standards to developing and using either North American or international standards in Canada. Our catalogue of domestic standards, which used to contain more than 5,000 different documents about 15 years ago, has shrunk to 2,600 this year—so it's been diminished by roughly half—and that downward trend will continue, so we'll have fewer and fewer specifically Canadian standards in our current marketplace in terms of standards development. Conversely, we have seen a significant growth of activity at the international level. If you think about the major standards development organizations internationally, such as ISO, IEC, which deals with electro-technical standards, and ITU, which deals with telecommunications, their combined catalogue of standards exceeds 30,000 documents. We see about 1,000 to 2,000 standards being published every year by these three large organizations, so the catalogue of standards internationally is growing by leaps and bounds.

Our role at SCC is to coordinate the effective participation of more than 2,600 Canadians in international standards development activities to ensure that our strategic interests are reflected in the key standards that are being developed. The issue here is that we have to make a distinction, given the scope of activity, between those areas in which we have to agree and accept that we are standards-takers, while accepting that these international standards can be used in Canada, and those areas in which we have to become standards-makers, areas in which we have a strategic interest in ensuring that those standards reflect our needs. That's a distinction that wasn't made in the past and now we need to focus on it more and more. We're seeing industry reducing its investment in domestic standards and at the same time, when you look at regulators, we're seeing increasing reliance on international standards.

SCC maintains a database of all standards that are incorporated by reference in federal regulations. In 2014, we found more than 1,160 different standards incorporated in federal regulations. Only 38% of those standards are domestic. Everything else is either a standard from the U.S., a regional standard or an international standard. The trend is continuing, so as our domestic catalogue is shrinking, we see regulators using more and more regional and international standards.

I've spoken to you about the accreditation of those four additional SDOs in Canada. We should note that these organizations have been active in the country for many years. For example, ASTM, which is a very large U.S.-based testing business, has more than 1,400 Canadians participating in its committees. It's not as though it's a U.S.-based organization that has no roots in the country. It has significant roots in the country. We're just recognizing a fact of life now with the accreditation of this organization in Canada.

In terms of the trends, we're also seeing that Canadian business interests have been loud and clear on the need for one standard, one test accepted everywhere, in order to maintain their competitiveness vis-à-vis other regional markets, such as those in Europe and Asia. This is why our accreditation of these new standards development organizations makes sense: they will allow for the development of joint Canada-U.S. standards.

From a public policy perspective, we also need to step up our efforts on the standards front to develop more joint Canada-U.S. standards in order to support the objectives of the Regulatory Cooperation Council, the RCC. One example that we've recently announced is that UL will be developing joint Canada-U.S. standards for life jackets and marine abandonment suits. These will facilitate the harmonization efforts between Transport Canada and its counterparts in the U.S. Once developed, these standards will be adopted as national standards for Canada as well as the U.S. These standards will replace outdated domestic standards that are currently in CGSB's standards catalogue.

Over the course of the last three years, as part of its maintenance process, SCC has reviewed and looked at CGSB's standards catalogue. We've seen a trend here that I think is important for you to be aware of. We've asked CGSB to review and update its standards that have not been maintained according to our accreditation requirements. Although CGSB did withdraw more than 650 outdated standards from its collection, over half of the standards currently in its catalogue remain out of date. This situation is problematic for key stakeholders, including regulators, industry, and consumers.

As you continue your study, I hope this provides some context surrounding standardization in Canada, and I would be pleased to take any comments or questions.

12:15 p.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Pat Martin

We'll begin with our rounds of questioning right away.

For the NDP, the official opposition, Mr. Mathieu Ravignat, you have five minutes, please.

12:15 p.m.

NDP

Mathieu Ravignat NDP Pontiac, QC

You recently accredited four standards organizations. Is there a long-term vision or a long-term plan with regard to how many we will need? Is it on a case-by-case basis? Is it to answer needs that arise? Is there a macroanalysis as to where you're going with these accreditations?

12:15 p.m.

Vice-President, Strategy, Standards Council of Canada

Michel Girard

In our system we have a document called CAN-P-1, which we use for the accreditation of standards development organizations. There criteria in that document state that an organization is required to have a presence in Canada; that regulators and other users must be taking advantage of those standards now, and that the documents being produced as national standards in Canada must be available in both official languages. So there are criteria for the accreditation of these organizations.

Standards development organizations could apply to SCC for accreditation, and we would have to audit their capacity to deliver standards for the country, but doing so needs to be advantageous for Canada and for them.

We were very pleased to see ASTM, UL, NSF, and AHRI submit applications for accreditation, because we felt we had significant gaps in our standards catalogue. Now we have eight organizations that I think can collectively meet the needs of Canadians.

There may be applications from additional organizations in the future, but I would say that the bulk of the gaps we identified are now being filled by those eight organizations.

12:15 p.m.

NDP

Mathieu Ravignat NDP Pontiac, QC

Do you get a sense that the eight are covering the playing field well enough?

12:15 p.m.

Vice-President, Strategy, Standards Council of Canada

Michel Girard

Yes. I think if you look at the combined catalogues of these organizations, you cover a lot in addition to what we use internationally through the ISO, IEC, and ITU.

12:20 p.m.

NDP

Mathieu Ravignat NDP Pontiac, QC

And has accrediting the extra four created more competition in the standardization field?

12:20 p.m.

Vice-President, Strategy, Standards Council of Canada

Michel Girard

We are now seeing more choice, and stakeholders decide what standards they need to meet their objectives. Our sense is that in Canada there should be only one standard covering a given subject and not two, three, or four competing standards. The way we've oriented the system now, as Rae and Monsieur Rousseau explained earlier, if an SDO believes there is a need for a standard, it will submit its request through a central repository that we have established at SCC, and if other organizations are supportive or not opposed, then that standard will be developed and adopted as a national standard of Canada. So it's based on the expertise of the organizations and their ability to deliver what stakeholders need.

12:20 p.m.

NDP

Mathieu Ravignat NDP Pontiac, QC

Do you have a sense that the fact that there are more organizations has lowered the costs for clients?

12:20 p.m.

Vice-President, Strategy, Standards Council of Canada

Michel Girard

There certainly is more choice in how the standards will be paid for in their development and use. That's clear. Organizations like ASTM are global organizations. They will develop standards that can be used around the world, in a hundred countries. They can be translated into 15 languages. So their business model is very different from that of an organization that focuses on only the federal government, for example, or on Canadian consumers. That gives them an advantage and can lower their cost.

12:20 p.m.

NDP

Mathieu Ravignat NDP Pontiac, QC

Do you conduct annual audits of the standards development organizations?