Government Operations Committee on Dec. 10th, 2013

[Pablo Sobrino]

The real value is that in a lot of cases if you don't get the reference buy, you're stopped. It's not whether you can put money into it. It's that you're stopped.

I'm speculating here, but you'd probably have to convince a larger company to take your product and take it away.

It's a completely different idea.

[The Chair, NDP, Pierre-Luc Dusseault]

Thank you for your questions and answers.

I also have a quick question before we wrap things up.

You mentioned that you promoted the program at seminars. What kind of resources are set aside for the program's promotion, so that companies, like the ones in my riding, would be informed of its existence? How much do you invest into the program's promotion?

[Pablo Sobrino]

Currently, I use the staff of the Office of Small and Medium Enterprises in the regions. We are trying to expand that team. Representatives from other departments also participate. Often, representatives of the Department of National Defence join us at those meetings in the regions. For instance, two representatives of the Office of Small and Medium Enterprises located in Halifax can come to New Brunswick, and the representatives of the Department of National Defence attend the meeting.

Our goal is to show all innovators what opportunities they will have if they work with us. This is an awareness-raising program across Canada—both in small towns and in large urban centres. However, we are much more successful in small towns, where we can get people's attention. In large cities, it is more difficult to attract people.

That is what we are doing. There are not many resources on the ground. Our agents work with small and medium enterprises. They organize specialized meetings as part of that program.

[The Chair, NDP, Pierre-Luc Dusseault]

Thank you.

This concludes your testimony. Thank you once again for joining us.

I will suspend the sitting for a few minutes, and then the committee members will come back for the second hour of the meeting.

Thank you for being here. Good luck with the program going forward.

[Pablo Sobrino]

Thank you. Happy holidays to everyone.

[The Chair, NDP, Pierre-Luc Dusseault]

Members of the committee, we will continue our ninth meeting.

This time, we are welcoming witnesses from the Public Service Commission of Canada. More specifically, we are hearing from the following individuals: Ms. Robinson, President; Ms. Laurendeau, Senior Vice-President, Policy Branch; Ms. Bogden, Vice-President, Audit and Data Services Branch; and Mr. Thom, Vice-President, Staffing and Assessment Services. They are here to speak to their 2012-2013 annual report and various audit reports produced in 2012-2013.

Without further ado, I yield the floor to you. You have about 10 minutes. Afterwards, the committee members will have an opportunity to ask you questions.

Thank you for joining us. Go ahead.

[Anne-Marie Robinson, President, Public Service Commission of Canada]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I am very pleased to be here today to discuss, on my own behalf and my fellow commissioners'—Susan Cartwright and Daniel Tucker—the Public Service Commission's 2012-13 annual report, tabled in Parliament on November 6.

The mandate of the Public Service Commission is to promote and safeguard merit-based appointments and, in collaboration with other stakeholders, to protect the non-partisan nature of the public service. We welcome this opportunity to report to Parliament on our mandate.

Today I will be focusing my remarks on three areas. I will discuss the results of our oversight activities, make observations on the hiring and staffing activities in the public service, and highlight some of areas where I think there is still more work to do.

Oversight of the staffing system is a priority for the Public Service Commission. Based on all our oversight and feedback mechanisms—which include monitoring, audits and investigations—the commission has concluded that the management of staffing in departments and agencies continued to improve in 2012-2013.

The 12 audits the PSC conducted this year found that most of the key elements of effective staffing management were in place, and deputy heads and managers respected their delegated authority. However, some areas still require further attention. For example, some organizations need to continue to improve their internal monitoring of appointment processes. That monitoring allows them to detect and correct issues in a timely way. This brings me to our investigations.

This year, 44 cases were founded. We saw more cases involving fraud—for instance, the use of false educational or professional credentials. Many of these cases were detected as a result of improved monitoring by departments and agencies, as well as by the PSC.

However, I would like to note that the number of problematic transactions and founded investigations is actually very low in the context of the more than 100,000 hiring and staffing activities conducted on average each year.

With respect to hiring activities, this was an unusual year in many ways as departments and agencies focused their efforts on redeploying employees and placing persons affected by workforce adjustments, thereby altering the normal staffing patterns in government.

Overall hiring to the public service declined by 28.3%. This includes indeterminants, specified term and casual hiring, as well as the hiring of students. With fewer hires and more departures, the overall population that is covered by the Public Service Employment Act declined by 5.4%. Public service hiring declined throughout the country, but more particularly in the national capital region.

While student hiring was also down, over 9,500 students were still hired for part-time and summer employment. They represented 31% of all hiring to the public service, a percentage that has consistently increased over the past four years.

We also saw enhanced access to public service jobs. National area of selection continues to allow more Canadians to apply for opportunities no matter where they live. As well, Canadians without any previous work experience in the public service accounted for 41.7% of new permanent hires, the largest component for the first time in over a decade.

Now I'd like to turn to the support that the PSC provided to organizations in managing workforce reductions.

In 2012-13, the PSC enhanced the priority administration program, which allows the public service to retain qualified employees who have the skills and experience needed for the future. Working in close collaboration with departments and agencies, the PSC placed 956 priority persons, 17% more than last year even though permanent hiring was down by some 60%.

I'm also very happy to say that since April 1 we have successfully redeployed another 953 priority persons, the vast majority of whom were surplus employees. At the same time, the PSC has seen a drop in the placement in other priority categories, including a significant decline in the placement of Canadian armed forces veterans who have been medically released.

At the request of Veterans Affairs, the Public Service Commission provided technical options to address this issue for their consideration and the government has recently introduced Bill C-11, An Act to amend the Public Service Employment Act (priority hiring for injured veterans). Should Parliament approve these proposed amendments, the PSC is ready to implement them.

I'd now like to turn to public service renewal. There were fewer graduates who entered the public service in 2012-13. There were also fewer employees aged 35 years of age and younger; they represented 18.4% of the public service in March 2013, down from 21.4% in March 2010. In this context, a focus on renewal and the recruitment of new employees will gain greater importance as the public service moves forward.

Future recruitment must also take into account our increasingly diverse population. According to the most recent population data published by Treasury Board Secretariat, overall, we are making progress with the representation of employment equity groups in the public service. However, we still have work to do.

This year, the PSC conducted further research to better understand the challenges that employment equity groups experience and to use the findings to better target areas for specific action. For instance, we looked more closely at how being a member of an employment equity group affects the chances of promotion. One of the notable findings was that both men and women with disabilities were less likely to be promoted compared to those not belonging to an employment equity group. Even though these findings represent a single snapshot over a period of one year, we are concerned and are now undertaking more detailed work using this year's data. As part of this, we are taking a deeper look at career progressions among the designated groups.

In the meantime, we are sharing these findings with those in the public service who have leadership responsibilities for employment equity, including deputy ministers, and heads of human resources. We've also shared these results with the champions and the chairs of the respective employment equity groups in government.

With respect to innovation, the PSC continues to leverage its technology and expertise to offer departments and agencies efficient and cost-effective services tailored to their needs.

This year, the commission expanded its e-testing capacity. We have seen a steady increase in online testing, which now represents 50% of all tests administered by the PSC. We also made further advances in the use of unsupervised Internet testing and computer-generated testing. These innovative tools are a valuable link in enhancing access to public service jobs and effectively managing high volumes of applications.

I would now like to turn to the issue of non-partisanship. Safeguarding the political impartiality of the public service continues to be of critical importance. Our 2012 staffing survey found that employees' awareness continued to increase. For instance, 73% of respondents were aware of their rights and responsibilities with respect to political activities—up from 69% found in last year's survey. We will continue to collaborate with departments, agencies and other stakeholders to find ways to sustain this momentum.

It has been seven years since the implementation of the Public Service Employment Act, and we are reflecting on how we can continue to evolve our risk-based approach to audits, for example, with respect to small and micro organizations.

Going forward, the Public Service Commission is committed to working collaboratively with departments and agencies to build a strong culture and foundation of compliance, while providing independent oversight and assurance to Parliament on the health of the staffing system and the non-partisan nature of the public service.

Finally, Mr. Chair, you may have noticed that the PSC itself was among the 12 organizations audited in 2012-13. The commission put in place robust measures to mitigate risks concerning possible conflicts of interest. The findings and the three recommendations in this audit are being addressed through the implementation of a detailed action plan.

I would now be very pleased to respond to your questions.

[The Chair, NDP, Pierre-Luc Dusseault]

Thank you so much for your presentation.

Without further ado, I will let the committee members ask questions.

Mrs. Day, you have five minutes.

[Anne-Marie Day, NDP, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I wish you and your family happy holidays. Thank you for coming to testify upon invitation.

My first question has to do with veterans and military members. That group is at a huge risk. In fact, the rate of suicide has increased among both men and women. That rate is 26.6% for men and 14% for women—which is 45% higher than among the general population.

You manage various priorities, including disability, workforce adjustment, returns following an extended leave, moves with a spouse or a common-law partner who is a member of the Canadian Forces, and so on.

Are there any special measures to quickly reintegrate veterans into the workforce?

[Anne-Marie Robinson]

Thank you for that question.

Medically released veterans are a priority. The commission can direct veterans with that priority status to the available positions. The current legislation sets out an order of precedence. For instance, some priorities are statutory and have precedence over other types of priorities.

The legislation stipulates that medically released veterans have a regulatory priority. The commission is happy to see that the recently introduced bill grants veterans a higher level of priority, as that will help us appoint a larger number of medically released veterans.

[Anne-Marie Day, NDP, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Are veterans appointed to positions on an indeterminate basis more often?

[Anne-Marie Robinson]

Thanks to the priority program, we have the flexibility to appoint those individuals to permanent positions.

[Anne-Marie Day, NDP, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

According to the 2012-2013 annual report, for the fist time in over a decade, those with no previous experience were the main source of new indeterminate hiring. Can you explain to us why that was?

[Anne-Marie Robinson]

Thank you for the question.

That's a bit difficult to explain because 2012-2013 was an exceptional year. I hope the fact that an individual with no experience in the public service can pass one of our exams indicates that our staffing processes are open to the public and accessible to everyone.

[Anne-Marie Day, NDP, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

We know that, in 2012-2013, many public workers were laid off. Were indeterminate positions created to fill gaps or was there an urgent need for extra staff?

[Anne-Marie Robinson]

Thank you for the question.

The general workforce adjustment policy falls within the purview of the Treasury Board. The commission plays two key roles. First, it is responsible for using that policy to determine whether a public servant will be retained or laid off. To us, it is important to ensure that this process is transparent and fair. Second, the commission is responsible for managing the priority system. The public servants who have been declared surplus have the right to be part of that system. The commission's responsibility is to ensure that those individuals are appointed to a position before any other public servants. In 2012-2013, we appointed almost 950 surplus employees, and since April 1, 2013, we have appointed another 950 of them.

[Anne-Marie Day, NDP, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Is my time up?

[The Chair, NDP, Pierre-Luc Dusseault]

You have five seconds left.

[Anne-Marie Day, NDP, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you.

Happy holidays.

[The Chair, NDP, Pierre-Luc Dusseault]

Thank you.

Mr. Van Kesteren, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, all of you, for appearing before us.

Ms. Robinson, on page 1 of your presentation, you said, “This year, 44 cases were founded.” What does that mean? Did you fire 44 people?

[Anne-Marie Robinson]

Thank you for the question.

Under our mandate for conducting investigations under the act, there are a number of categories under which we do those investigations. We can do investigations if there's been an error made in a competitive process, if there's been improper conduct.

In this case, as I mentioned, I talked about the number of fraud cases. After a finding as a result of any one of those investigations, a number of different corrective measures could be put in place, including revocation of a position.

In some cases—

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

I'm sorry; I have to just interject, if you wouldn't mind.

I want to know if those 44 were fired, though, or just corrected. Out of the....

How many public servants are there?

[Anne-Marie Robinson]

Normally we have about 100,000 transactions per year. The number of founded investigations in that context is relatively small, but of course we take all of these cases very seriously.

For example, in a fraud case where someone has presented false credentials, normally what would happen in that case is the appointment would be revoked and the person would no longer work for the public service. Those are quite rare.

In other cases, depending on what has happened in the context of the investigation, different corrective measures are put in place. In fact in our annual report, we do have a detailed table with all of the different corrective measures, by numbers, following the investigations.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

Okay, but I'm still not getting an answer. Maybe I just don't grab it. Maybe you could just be a little clearer.

I guess your job is to monitor the public employees. In so doing, there are going to be cases where you have to take final action. You have to fire.

How many public servants are there, did you say?