Evidence of meeting #101 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was salaries.
A recording is available from Parliament.
NDP
Daniel Blaikie NDP Elmwood—Transcona, MB
Does that in any way limit the flexibility of a prime minister to name ministers of state with a ministry of state?
NDP
Daniel Blaikie NDP Elmwood—Transcona, MB
Okay. There is really, then, no additional flexibility achieved by paying ministers of state out of the departmental estimates process. If they were named in the act as ministers of state in the place in which the ministries of state are named in the act, you would have the same amount of flexibility. It would just be a question of where the money comes from, whether from the pre-existing departmental budget or directly out of the consolidated revenue fund. Is that correct?
Privy Council Officer, Machinery of Government, Privy Council Office
Yes. I think what you're speaking to is the objective of your motion.
Privy Council Officer, Machinery of Government, Privy Council Office
With that we would agree. What you've just expressed is what you would hope to achieve with the way you've written amendment NDP-3.
The view is that it's not sufficient. Given the structure of the Salaries Act, the particular wording of the amendment is not sufficient to authorize the payment of a salary of a minister of state out of the consolidated revenue fund. Something more specific, such as establishing the salary in the Salaries Act or establishing the way the salary is to be determined—who will approve the salary—would do it. You will find that in all the positions for which a salary can be paid under the Salaries Act, there is first a salary established, and that's not done with the wording of your amendment.
NDP
Daniel Blaikie NDP Elmwood—Transcona, MB
Okay. Are the other ministers, then, paid out of the consolidated revenue fund by virtue of being listed in part 1 of the Salaries Act?
Privy Council Officer, Machinery of Government, Privy Council Office
In section 4 you'll find them listed.
Privy Council Officer, Machinery of Government, Privy Council Office
Do you have the Salaries Act in front of you?
Privy Council Officer, Machinery of Government, Privy Council Office
If you look at section 2 to begin with, you see that it establishes that the salaries mentioned in this act are payable out of the consolidated revenue fund.
Then when you go through the statute, you will find that salaries are specified and increases are indexed, but the Prime Minister shall be paid a salary of a certain amount, and ministers of state who preside over ministries of state shall be provided a salary of a certain amount. That is the salary.
What you've drafted is a statutory rule that provides that the salaries of ministers of state cannot exceed the salaries of others, but you haven't established the salaries themselves.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski
Are there any further questions?
Seeing none, we'll ask for a vote on amendment NDP-3.
Do you want a recorded vote, Mr. Blaikie?
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski
All in favour of amendment NDP-3?
(Amendment negatived [See Minutes of Proceedings])
(Clauses 2 to 6 inclusive agreed to)
Shall the title carry?
Conservative
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski
Thank you very much, colleagues. We have completed our clause-by-clause examination of Bill C-24.
Is there any further business that the committee wishes to raise for the benefit of this committee?
Seeing none—
Yes, Madam Ratansi.
Liberal
Liberal
Yasmin Ratansi Liberal Don Valley East, ON
On Monday? I'm sure the ministers are looking forward to it.