Government Operations Committee on Nov. 28th, 2017

[Erin Weir, NDP, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

Thank you very much.

Madam Minister, you said, and I quote: “Canadians can expect an announcement on the future of Canada Post Corporation in the not-too-distant future.”

As I'm sure you're aware, our committee pulled out all the stops to present our report on the future of Canada Post in December of last year because the government said it wanted to respond in the spring of this year. We're now approaching the end of the year, so I'm wondering if you can commit that the government will respond to our report on Canada Post before Parliament adjourns for Christmas.

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

I can make that commitment, yes.

[Erin Weir, NDP, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

Okay, so “the not-too-distant future” means in the next two or three weeks.

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

It's really the not-too-distant future. It's before Christmas.

[Erin Weir, NDP, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

Okay. Thanks very much for clarifying that.

Regarding the Phoenix working group, you said, and again I quote: “The working group of ministers created by the Prime Minister in April is ensuring that we take a whole-of-government approach.” You also talked about a pan-government approach. I wonder what that means and what the working group is actually doing.

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

In my opinion, the working group provides a very targeted, calculated reminder every week we meet to every minister around that table, and as a result every minister at cabinet, that it is the responsibility of every minister to make sure that their people are paid on time. We ask deputies for updates on what they're doing in their department and what kinds of resources they could be committing. Ministers are expected to know numbers in terms of what their department is looking at: are the numbers headed in the right direction, and if not, why?

It does add a level of accountability and awareness that is significant, I would say.

[Erin Weir, NDP, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

Do you feel that all the ministers on that working group are responsible for Phoenix, or do you take personal responsibility for the file?

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

It's 100% on me. My mandate rather clearly states that this is my number one priority. I feel lucky to have the colleagues I have around the table who are assisting in that regard, led by Minister Goodale. The oversight provided by that committee ensures the whole-of-government piece, but ultimately the buck stops at me to get this problem resolved.

[Erin Weir, NDP, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

Thanks.

I'd like to reinforce something that Mr. McCauley said about the frustration that we have as MPs in not having tools to help constituents with Phoenix problems. If someone comes into our offices and needs help with employment insurance or immigration, there are hotlines that we or our staff can call to get answers. There's nothing like that in place for Phoenix.

In an adjournment debate with the parliamentary secretary back in March, I suggested establishing an MP hotline for Phoenix. I want to clarify when that's going to happen and that it's going to be comparable to the hotlines that we have for immigration and EI.

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

Yes. You and I had that conversation as well.

To my mind, it's about very cleverly and calculatingly using resources to the best. Every resource we pull off the backlog is not addressing the backlog. This idea has been discussed during my tenure a couple of times, and we need to methodically deal with the backlog using the priorities and lenses we've created.

I completely agree that we need to have a stronger line of communication. As for what form that will be, I'm not prepared to say whether it will be an actual hotline or what kinds of resources we'll dedicate. I have to look at options. I can commit, as I did, that within a couple of weeks I will make sure there are clear communication lines, but I can't tell you what that will look like.

[Erin Weir, NDP, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

The perspective I would offer is that we have 338 constituency offices across the country that could be used as points of contact to help address the most problematic Phoenix cases. That's the logic the government has taken with immigration and EI. We don't hear the argument that people shouldn't be able to jump the EI cue by going to their MP's office. We say that the role of MPs is to serve constituents, and they need to have access to get answers. I really don't understand why the same logic wouldn't apply to Phoenix.

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

I do find that particularly compelling, and I will look into it. I guess I'm just mindful of every resource that we take off, and being clear, but I will definitely commit to looking into that.

[Erin Weir, NDP, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

Can you give us a sense of how much the government is prepared to spend on fixing Phoenix?

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

We have to spend wisely. To date, depending on where you start the math—we could include the initial $309 million—our government has put in $143 million from this spring and $50 million from last year on the satellite offices, and we have reinvested the $70 million that was booked in savings over three years. Already you're up to, say, $600 million, and more money will need to be spent. I'm not prepared to give you an exact number, because as we face each of these challenges, the numbers will change. However, at the end of the day, people need to be paid, and we're going to pay what it takes to get them paid.

The more interesting conversation will be around investments in stabilizing the current system and perhaps investments in exploring alternatives.

[Erin Weir, NDP, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

Between the original cost of Phoenix and the money that's been put into fixing it, so far it sounds like we're pushing $1 billion. I appreciate that you're not prepared to give a final number, but can you tell us at what point and on what basis your government will update us on the ongoing tally for Phoenix?

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

Absolutely. What I've just given you is the math to date. It's $309 million, plus $142 million, plus $50 million, plus three times $70 million. As we make further investments, we will immediately advise. We will make that public, absolutely.

[Erin Weir, NDP, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

In the same vein, one of the troubling findings from the Auditor General's report was that there were “no comprehensive governance and oversight” structures in place to deal with Phoenix. How would you respond to that concern?

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

In terms of governance? Sorry, I was distracted by the water. I apologize.

[Erin Weir, NDP, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

No problem.

The Auditor General said—and I'm quoting—that there were “no comprehensive governance and oversight” structures set up, so—

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

At the go-live of Phoenix, I think that's a very fair assessment. I think we've learned that we as government—we as a small-g government, the government before or after—need a whole-of-government approach, with governance mechanisms that include ultimate accountability and oversight in one place.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Next is Monsieur Drouin, for seven minutes, please.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank all of the witnesses for being here, and particularly Minister Qualtrough for taking the time to be here in front of this committee.

Minister, I'm going to take a different approach. I don't think it's partisan to say that we can see this overall pattern developing with the Auditor General. It's a fact that the previous government pre-booked $56 million for the ETI, the email transformation initiative, and it's a fact that the previous government pre-booked $70 million in savings for the Phoenix pay system. We can see this pattern developing.

It's as if the previous government thought they would ask public servants to build a house, but all they gave them was a two-by-four and a hammer. It just doesn't make sense, and unfortunately many of my constituents today are suffering from these decisions.

That's the past. I want to focus a bit on what's been done over the past two years and where we're going, but it is frustrating for them and it's frustrating for me as a member of Parliament.

We know that your predecessor from PSPC said that the Phoenix system was ready to go. Obviously we all want to get to the objective of people getting paid on time. This is the objective we've heard loud and clear. What confidence do you have that your department has actioned the right plans now?

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

I have every confidence that we now have in place both the governance structure and the list of measures needed to be taken in order to stabilize the Phoenix pay system. I have every confidence in that. I think the people we have on this task know exactly what needs to be done and have a methodical, well-planned, action road map for doing it. I do have that confidence. I think time will tell if that confidence is well placed, but I'm very confident that we are headed in the right direction. We have to continuously improve this system. There's just no alternative.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Minister, we know that the contract was designed as an essentially task-based contract. For future reference, is there anything different we could do in bidding on contracts with proponents such as IBM and others? What design differences could we have asked them to make, rather than just telling them to design a human resources and pay system? What other areas do you believe we should have focused on with regard to the Phoenix pay system?

We've heard previously that we opted for a trainee program rather than for making sure that employees got the proper training. Are there other areas where you think we missed steps, where we miscalculated the implementation of Phoenix?

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

With respect to the IBM contract, as we modernize procurement, we need to focus on outcomes. We need to tell people what we want to achieve and let them propose how it needs to be done, instead of asking people to do a series of things that will hopefully end up where we want it to go. Having an outcomes-based approach is a big lesson learned.

Specifically with respect to Phoenix, I would focus on the massive business transformation piece and all the tools that could have been put in place to manage the workforce and expose people to change management. A big cultural shift was required. We needed to bring people along in this culture shift, to look at the technical aspects, and to improve our policies.

I could give you five examples of policies that should have been looked at before we even went down this road. The software we bought wasn't compatible with the business processes at the time, nor with the policies we had in place. If you don't have these things aligned, you're going to end up with the mess we ended up with. Hindsight is 20/20, but I think a bigger-picture view would have been helpful.