Government Operations Committee on Nov. 28th, 2017

[Kyle Peterson, Liberal, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Thank you for that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Minister, we've come to the end of the hour. However, it's been the custom of this committee to try to get a complete round of questions in. We have one three-minute intervention left, from Mr. Weir. We beg your indulgence and will ask you to stay for a few more minutes.

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

Absolutely.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Mr. Weir, you're up.

[Erin Weir, NDP, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

Thanks very much.

Speaking of timing, I would like to ask about the timeline for fixing Phoenix. The Auditor General suggests that it will take years. Do you find that acceptable?

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

Well, it's certainly not acceptable that it will take years. Again, I don't mean to quibble, but the definition of “fixing” is one that we've struggled with a lot. If by “fixing” you mean at what point we will have a stable system that pays everybody on time and accurately, it will not take years. If by “fixing” you mean a state-of-the-art, integrated HR-to-pay process policy system, that will most likely take years, yes.

[Erin Weir, NDP, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

Okay. In terms of the first objective of having a system that pays people properly and on time, when will the government achieve it?

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

Again I hesitate because our dates have been wrong in the past, but I'm hopeful that you'll see it by the end of 2018.

[Erin Weir, NDP, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

You mentioned earlier that you take personal responsibility for Phoenix. If that goal is not achieved by the end of 2018, would you resign as Minister of Public Services and Procurement?

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

Wow. This is an interesting way to end this discussion.

I hope that if that goal wasn't achievable, it wouldn't come as a surprise by the end of 2018, so I would be forthright and honest and amend my estimation as it became apparent that goal couldn't be met.

[Erin Weir, NDP, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

You said something about realigning the IBM contract. It seems IBM keeps getting paid more money to help fix a system they set up. Do you think that's appropriate? Do you think there is way of having a better contract approach in the future to avoid these problems?

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

Absolutely there could be, in terms of focusing more on outcomes than on tasks, as I spoke briefly about earlier, but I think we need to be very clear about the scope of the work that IBM was contracted to do. It was not contracted to provide the robust system that I'm suggesting it should have been contracted to do. Les can give us more details, but we are holding IBM to the terms of their contract.

[Les Linklater]

As an update on the way we work with IBM, earlier this year we did update the contract on the technical side to move to a managed service approach, whereby we are giving them certain tasks with expected outcomes to deliver, as opposed to the piecemeal, modular approaches that had been done in the past. We are now looking at the functional side and replicating that, so that we can give more risk to IBM in helping to manage the pay system more efficiently.

[Erin Weir, NDP, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Thank you very much for your attendance here and your indulgence. You were, as I mentioned in my opening remarks, scheduled to be here only until 12 noon, so we do thank you for extending your time. I know you have an extremely busy schedule.

Colleagues, we will suspend for about two minutes and then we'll reconvene for the rest of the meeting.

Minister, thank you.

We are suspended.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Colleagues, I call the meeting back to order.

Since we have a little less than 15 minutes before we have to close this meeting, I'm going to suggest that we only have time for two seven-minute interventions. We will have one from the government side and one from the official opposition.

I have Madame Shanahan up first, for seven minutes, please.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I would like to continue in the vein my colleague Mr. Ayoub had started with the officials. Mr. Linklater, I see you are there. It's really something that's bugging me. In my riding I have a few people who have been involved in Phoenix, mostly those having had to come back from retirement, which they have been happy to do. I've heard stories anecdotally about what that experience has been like.

I want to assure myself. In terms of these disturbing stories we hear about people being out of pocket and the financial hardship that they're experiencing, do we have confirmation that every employee who was missing pay or is missing pay either has had a pay advance or has otherwise been made whole, and if so, why do we still hear stories about employees being out of pocket?

[Les Linklater]

Thank you for the question.

I think it's important to underline that deputy ministers and heads of HR, chief financial officers, are well aware that emergency salary advances and priority payments must be made available to staff who come forward with hardship issues. No one should be going without money if they need it.

When we hear of these stories as well, we have to ask ourselves where the communication breakdown is among employee, manager, and senior management in terms of providing that relief. Rest assured that if a case comes to our attention and is escalated, we then engage the department directly in order to ensure that the employee is provided with whatever financial assistance is needed as soon as possible.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

I would ask you actually to be even more proactive in that regard, having had some HR experience myself.

Sometimes it's difficult for newer employees, employees who are not so sure of their situation, to just understand their pay system, given that we know how complex it is. Regarding managers, it disturbed me as well to hear that at the very onset of the Phoenix system, there were managers who did not know that they had to go into the system and actually approve transactions and interact with the system.

I can sympathize; it's a very behavioural management kind of mechanism. If I get a prompt that I need to do something, I'll go in and do it, but if there's no prompt, I'm going on with my regular day. How could it be that managers did not know that they had to go in and do these transactions?

[Les Linklater]

Thank you for the question. I think it's very timely that we've recognized, through the integrated team, that in terms of communications with staff directly, whether they're affected by pay issues or they are managers, we need to do a better job of equipping everyone with the knowledge they need to be able to navigate the system.

We are working with the unions on content for mandatory team meetings that will be launched in the coming weeks. OCHRO, the Office of the Chief Human Resources Officer at the Treasury Board, has also begun to launch more tailored training for individuals, depending on the department they're in, the HR system that they use, and how it interacts with Phoenix.

At rollout, training was more generic and not particularly targeted or tailored. We are looking at a more tailored approach. Coupled with this, we will, with Treasury Board backing, be moving out with mandatory training for managers on Phoenix in the coming weeks.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Thank you for that. Again, if I can venture further, if it helps at all, I also come from a financial education background, and in fact a big part of my job when I was in HR was educating people about what their paycheque was about, including the pension payments and why they saw deductions at source of different amounts at different times. It's a huge opportunity to inform people and help them to keep track of their own personal situation.

That said, the employer does have that responsibility to make sure that every transaction is properly done and that adjustments are done in a clear and transparent manner. Can you please explain to the committee in detail how those adjustments are going to be put in effect for employee T4s, insurance premiums that may have been overpaid or underpaid, pension payments, especially as pay systems, like the people who are being paid, are not in a static situation and are constantly moving and evolving?

[Les Linklater]

In the interest of time, I hope I can do justice to the—

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Give as much detail as possible, within the two minutes.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

You can provide it in writing as well to the committee. Am I right, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Certainly.