Evidence of meeting #111 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was company.
A recording is available from Parliament.
NDP
Erin Weir NDP Regina—Lewvan, SK
Thank you.
This is the government operations committee, so I do want to return to this question of how PSAB is administered within the federal government. We had one answer on the notion of whether it should be part of Crown-Indigenous Relations, Indigenous Services, or perhaps Public Services and Procurement generally. Are there further thoughts on that matter?
Maybe we'll just continue down the table to Mr. Derouard.
President and Member of Red Sky Metis Independent Nation, K-Sports Marine Inc.
In my view, it's hard to tell where the dam is in the water. I just know it's not flowing. That question is a little difficult.
I think if it's within Procurement Canada and it does come from the top down, then all purchasing departments do know that they have to use it. We asked where the disconnect was, and I think right now that's where the disconnect is. There is the procurement program policy, but nobody in purchasing cares to use it. There's the disconnect. Having it all in one department and coming from the top down so that they know what it is and they know they have to use it would, to my mind, be the right thing.
NDP
Chief Executive Officer and General Counsel, Gitpo Storms Corporation, As an Individual
Again I'll go back to the example I used about the helicopter procurement. Public Works was the body at that time, I think. There seemed to be more power, more prestige, coming from that body. The fear of going to Indian Affairs is that....
Again, I'm not trying to besmirch them. It's just that it's going to be seen as an “Indians versus the rest of us” thing, whereas if it's within the guys that usually do the procurement—i.e., Public Works—then it's everyone.
It's a subtle differentiation, but it's an important one, again, that we've dealt with on a whole bunch of other things. Saying this is a native thing does it an injustice; it's a business thing. It's a Canadian thing that has to be looked at.
I'm leaning towards the body that normally handles it.
President, FoxWise Technologies Inc.
To me it doesn't matter. It should be a mandatory program. I think INAC could step it up and do a great job. I think PSPC could do a great job. I'd just like to see it have more oomph.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Des Nedhe Development
I agree. It has to be in Procurement Canada, I believe. You should remove any other hurdles in front of us and not put us aside. Put every part in the main group, and we will have the focus we need.
NDP
Erin Weir NDP Regina—Lewvan, SK
In terms of defining which enterprises are eligible under the program, would you have confidence in Public Services and Procurement being able to do that, or do you see a role for the former INAC departments in determining who has access to PSAB in the first place? Somewhere along the line, someone has to define what is an aboriginal business that would qualify for PSAB.
President, FoxWise Technologies Inc.
I think there are good examples of how people have qualified what is an indigenous business and what's not, so it's just a question of best of breed, I think.
I think INAC does a pretty good job of registering first nation and indigenous businesses. There used to be a lot of shell companies out there. I don't think today there are as many as there were, because they can't pass the audits.
President and Member of Red Sky Metis Independent Nation, K-Sports Marine Inc.
My view is that staying at the policy of 33% aboriginal people working in the business is what it's all about. The shell companies have been a problem in the past. If there's a way of dissecting and getting those out of there to make a true aboriginal business, that's my view.
NDP
Erin Weir NDP Regina—Lewvan, SK
Are there any thoughts on that from Seven Generations or from Mr. Willy?
Executive Vice-President, Corporate, Seven Generations Energy Ltd.
No, I have no further comments.
President, FoxWise Technologies Inc.
I think it's a slippery slope, because when you're bidding on these large contracts, you need the best people for the job. We always look at indigenous first. We always have to hire the best person for the job, so to say that a certain percentage of the people who are going to work on this project must be first nations people to me has been a stumbling block. You can put bums in seats and whatever, but I want to grow my business and I want success. That's always been a tough one for me. I've never had any problem meeting the 33% threshold, so I think that's fair. However, it's hard for me to find 33% first nations people to deliver this technology project. It would be like telling me to find 33% German people to work on this project. It's a tough go. I can do the 33%, and that's never been an issue.
President and Member of Red Sky Metis Independent Nation, K-Sports Marine Inc.
I understand what you're saying, but we do have to train and develop aboriginal people. By having them aboard or maybe filling the seat, at least they'll be training, in my view, to better themselves.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski
Thank you very much.
To all of our witnesses, on behalf of all of my colleagues, thank you so much. This has been incredibly informative and helpful. Your testimony, your observations, and your recommendations I know will form a substantive part of our final report. However, should you have any additional information you think would benefit our committee, we strongly encourage you to submit those recommendations or suggestions through our clerk. Those will help us as we start developing our final report, which will come sometime in the new year.
Once again, thank you. You've been great. I've enjoyed it.
The meeting is adjourned.