Evidence of meeting #111 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was company.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:40 p.m.
President and Member of Red Sky Metis Independent Nation, K-Sports Marine Inc.
When you get that information, could we possibly have it too?
12:40 p.m.
Liberal
Francis Drouin Liberal Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON
I'm sure it would be made public in the report that will be published.
12:40 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski
Once we get that information, as per the norm, we will put it on our website, so it will be publicly available.
12:40 p.m.
Liberal
Francis Drouin Liberal Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON
We're asking for this information, but I'm not sure if the department has the capacity to produce those statistics. Obviously that could be, perhaps, one of our recommendations: to keep track. Targets are important, but we need to measure properly so we can ensure success.
I want to go back to you, Mr. Damm. You've mentioned some of the discrepancies between mandatory requirements versus scope of work, and we're doing this study as well, but non-aboriginal SMEs have also expressed concerns with regard to their being able to participate in procurement opportunities.
You've mentioned that one of them was that you have to be in business for 15 years. Is there a reason given to you when this requirement is put into the bid?
12:40 p.m.
President, FoxWise Technologies Inc.
No.
Sometimes we ask that they relax some of the requirements a little bit, and that's typically a yes or no. You have a certain amount of time to ask questions with regard to the RFP.
You know, they're just so skewed. They just don't make sense. Sometimes they've been changed and other times they haven't. I'm sorry that I'm kind of wishy-washy on it, but sometimes they change them and sometimes they don't.
Lots of times the mandatory requirements are fair, but it seems that on the larger procurements they get skewed. It's like somebody else has already been working with the government, and they want to bring them back in, because there's a huge cost to bringing a new company in to do that work. I hate to say that. It's all supposed to be fair and transparent, but they up the requirements, and it's hard for the other companies to get in.
We're an 18-year-old IT company. We can do all kinds of things. We have the financial capability to deliver business in the tens of millions of dollars.
12:45 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski
Thank you very much.
Mr. Shipley, go ahead for seven minutes, please.
12:45 p.m.
Conservative
Bev Shipley Conservative Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON
I want to follow up with Mr. Willy.
We've had a bit of a discussion around the 0.46%, and my colleague has asked for information on that.
You also mentioned a company in which you had 40 employees, and five of them were aboriginal, because you couldn't meet those demands. If that were to go to 10%, as Mr. Christmas indicated, or even 4%, which would be ten times more, would that create an issue in terms of being able to provide the people to actually fill the positions within those companies? That's not full, but I mean to be able to fill the positions within those companies. If there needs to be an increase, how do you graduate that so you can make sure you have the bodies and the expertise to make those commitments?
12:45 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Des Nedhe Development
Well, our recommendation was getting to 10% by 2023. If you look at the Australian government or the Saskatchewan government, they're going up slowly but surely.
In indigenous communities, the lag of labour will always last until there's an opportunity. Traditionally you saw coming from the communities a lot of RCMP, a lot of teachers, and a lot of people wanting to get into politics. Then we started pushing the rights issue and we got lawyers. Now we're into business. We're getting more business leaders.
If you open up further opportunities for indigenous people, the education system will catch up. We have a lot of social workers who are indigenous. Why? Because there are a lot of social issue jobs.
That's why we bought a creative and technical company. We're out there now filling it up. Our company is owned by its community. With all the revenue that we create, a third of it goes back into our company, and a third goes back to the community for dividends. The community likes that, because they can now start going on a path to self-determination that accentuates the government funding. They know they'll catch up on the employment, but as long as they can create own-source revenue, it's better for them and it's better for the country.
12:45 p.m.
Conservative
Bev Shipley Conservative Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON
Thank you, and I thank you for what you're doing.
Madam Targett, you made some really interesting comments.
You work with companies to help them know how to bid the best way and how to be successful. That's all part of the education, the training, and the maturity of a company as it goes forward. Is it mostly in PSAB or in private businesses where you have seen the success?
12:45 p.m.
Executive Vice-President, Corporate, Seven Generations Energy Ltd.
It's in private businesses.
12:45 p.m.
Executive Vice-President, Corporate, Seven Generations Energy Ltd.
Why?
Well—
12:45 p.m.
Conservative
Bev Shipley Conservative Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON
I'm not being smart in saying that. I'm just saying, if you can do it in private, what's the difficulty then in the public...?
I think we know the answer, but I want you to maybe talk about it, because the regulatory regimes are sometimes different.
12:45 p.m.
Executive Vice-President, Corporate, Seven Generations Energy Ltd.
Well, that's how we work. That's how we operate.
We see that there's an opportunity to work with indigenous businesses to help them grow. Why it's not done under PSAB, I guess would be a question for those who are more directly involved in that. For us, we saw that there was an opportunity to help advance a local community, help improve their socio-economic benefit. It's not about just them working with us and us throwing them a project; it's about them learning how to be competitive.
One of the best days I had was when we talked with that company and they said they were so busy. They had a big project and they couldn't do the little project that we had. That's a huge success story, because they are being competitive beyond what our needs are. That's going to help other businesses and encourage them to develop and enter into the marketplace as well.
12:45 p.m.
Conservative
Bev Shipley Conservative Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON
Back in the early part of November, the Tlicho government came in and talked to our committee regarding some of the indigenous communities and the businesses that have not been able to do PSAB because of its application. She mentioned that they are very discretionary, and recommended that they be less discretionary and in fact be put out in a non-discretionary manner.
We also had a representation from Indigenous and Northern Affairs Canada. They said that the value of set-asides reached $227 million in 2014, representing a 300% increase over five years since 2009.
Mr. Willy, you may have a comment on that, because what that says and what the private people are saying are two different things. Can I have some comments on that? They seem a little contradictory.
12:50 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Des Nedhe Development
I don't disagree with their numbers in the millions, but we're spending upwards of $20 billion through federal procurement. They are throwing around millions. I have seen the numbers and I will share them with the committee. From my numbers over the last 10 years, there have been years when we have actually gone over 1%, but there have been other years when we've been down below 0.2%.
My number over the last 10 years has been 0.46%. They are talking about millions, but they are spending upwards of $20 billion per year.
12:50 p.m.
Conservative
12:50 p.m.
President, FoxWise Technologies Inc.
I think it's the reporting. How are they reporting? Is it that you get a standing offer worth $5 million, and that is a set-aside, and they report that as a set-aside spend, or is it the actual business that's being derived out of that standing offer?
12:50 p.m.
Conservative
Bev Shipley Conservative Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON
With that, I want to turn it over to my colleague, who has a follow-up question.
12:50 p.m.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
Okay. I was just going to say I love the comment here about resource development, a path out of poverty. We've seen great examples of indigenous businesses like Eagle Spirit Energy and the Fort McLeod band.
If you have a couple of seconds, would you comment about pipelines through B.C.?
12:50 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski
Be very short, because we have one more intervention, and then we have to adjourn at one o'clock.
12:50 p.m.
Conservative
12:50 p.m.
Executive Vice-President, Corporate, Seven Generations Energy Ltd.
Absolutely. You can look at someone like Ellis Ross, who's a Liberal in British Columbia and chief of the Haisla, and the economic benefit they are not going to receive as a result of their projects not moving forward when it comes to LNG.
Yes, we have to find a path forward. It really is about nation-building. It affects all Canadians, and it does give these communities that don't have that opportunity to participate.... We're all Canadians.
12:50 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski
Thank you very much.
Our final intervention will come from Mr. Weir, for seven minutes.
Go ahead, please.