Government Operations Committee on March 20th, 2018

[Kyle Peterson, Liberal, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Okay. Let's talk about Shared Services. We haven't talked about Shared Services for a while.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

[Inaudible—Editor]

[Kyle Peterson, Liberal, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Thank you for your time. I appreciate the whole sum of your answers.

I'm happy to give 10 seconds to my Conservative friends over there because they'll make good use of them.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Thank you.

We'll now go to the five-minute rounds.

Mr. Kmiec, I guess you're sharing your time with Mr. McCauley.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

Yes. Hopefully, it doesn't get Phoenixed.

You Phoenixed my case file manager, the lady in my office who helps Phoenix people, people with problems with their pay. She has the same problem now. Thank goodness that in her case it's a minor overpayment and she was able to fix it. In your example, what would she have done? Would she have filled out the form, or would she have come to me as her supervisor?

A lot of people's lives have been screwed up, especially on the T4 issue. This is something that we warned the department and you, Minister, about months and months ago, especially those of us on the finance committee. Something that we members were talking about on a regular basis was that, come tax time, there would be a lot of people who would have serious problems filling out their taxes appropriately.

Another government department, the CRA, is going to take them to town because they also have a track record of customer service excellence, just like your department seemingly has with regard to people with Phoenix problems.

What actual, concrete actions are you going to take? How are you going to get through these issues? You've offered this new program, all this government spending that's going to happen. These individual case files can't seem to get fixed. Mr. McCauley has a lady who has taken time out of her life to try to fix her own problem in detailed format. I have people like that in my office too. Each one of us here has them.

What is it that you're going to do for them? In the case of my employee, thank goodness for her that it's a minor overpayment issue, but you Phoenixed her. She is the case file manager responsible for helping people with Phoenix issues, CRA issues, and immigration files, and she has the same issue.

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

I appreciate and apologize that your case manager is going through this. We are doing everything we can so that others do not have the same situation happen to them.

There are a number of things. Obviously, you're in a situation as an employer. You're also in a situation as a member of Parliament. I think it's also really important to recognize that we are causing incredible stress on employees, particularly around tax time. That's where we are, I'd say, beefing up, for lack of a technical term, our support around employees at tax time.

I'm going to let Les talk about the strong relations we have with the CRA, the success we've had around T4s, and the focus we've put on addressing overpayments to ensure that as many T4s as possible are accurate. For those that are not, there is an automatic reassessment, and people don't have to file again.

[Les Linklater]

Certainly, we do work very closely with the CRA and have regular exchanges of information. We are looking at taxes from the employee perspective so that where PSPC is in a position that it needs to issue an amended T4, that T4 is sent automatically either to Revenu Québec or to the CRA for an automatic reassessment by the tax authorities.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

Pardon me, but the CRA has a track record of dropping calls. That's its way of saying it never actually picks up the phone 60% of the time. The Auditor General has confirmed that. Many members of Parliament have pointed that out. I've experienced that. My office has experienced that, including the case file manager who has been Phoenixed; she has experienced that herself.

Are you saying that if they have issues later on, they'll have to call and wait with the CRA on the phone?

[Les Linklater]

No. This is what we are attempting to do with the CRA—with a great deal of success—through a process of processing of transactions at PSPC. If it's determined that we have to issue a revised T4 for the individual, we do that. It's transmitted automatically to the CRA or to Revenu Québec for an automatic reassessment of the tax file without the individual employee needing to refile or to engage either with PSPC or the CRA. The employee then receives the updated notice of assessment from the CRA, and is also able to access through Phoenix or through his or her CRA My Account any updated T4s issued by PSPC.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

In November at our meeting, we heard that we finally, after all the months and months and a couple of years of Phoenix, made the training mandatory. What percentage of people have gone through this new mandatory training?

[Les Linklater]

This is tracked by the Treasury Board Secretariat as the employer. The last statistics I had are dated by a couple of weeks, but we can provide these to the committee.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

We've heard the Treasury Board's track record with Phoenix. I'd rather not rely on it. I hope you're doing more than just leaving it to the Treasury Board.

[Les Linklater]

The last statistics I had for completion of one or more modules of training was about 80,000 employees. We can go back and get the updated figures and provide them to the clerk.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Thanks.

Do I have time for...?

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

You have 20 seconds—or 10 seconds now, so you might as well give it back.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

I'll give it to Mr. Peterson. He can pass it on to Mr. Drouin. It's a redistribution of time.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Thank you.

You have five minutes, Mr. Jowhari.

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Let me start by echoing my colleague MP Peterson's praise for the effort being put forward. Also, I'd like to acknowledge that the minister has acknowledged the challenges facing us.

There is much discussion concerning the new process around resolution of the issues and the old process. I'd like to start by asking either the minister or representatives of the department this, as people are watching right now on TV, and some of them are employees. They are saying that documents are being shown around and that they have sent the document to your MP's office. Can you in simple words explain what the old process was, what the new process is, and how the new process is going to help settle the issues we're having? Can you give us two or three key characteristics of the new process so that we can bring some reassurance not only to our staff, but also to the employees, for whom the new process is helping to resolve some of these issues?

I'll ask a couple of other questions, if time permits.

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

I think a fundamental difference in the way we're approaching this new process, although I would probably better characterize it as a modified process, is that we are helping get the answers we need to move things forward. We would hear from MPs' offices that an individual works for a certain department that isn't serviced by the pay centre. That inquiry isn't going to follow the same path as if it were a department or agency serviced by the pay centre.

Now we've set out a three-step process that determines where the individual works and whether it is serviced by the pay centre, what the exact nature of the issue they're experiencing is—we would get issues around, say, technological things, such as “I can't access Phoenix”, which actually go to the IT section of the department in question—and then determines financial impact in a much more respectful and dignified way.

I've heard feedback from employees that they find it really difficult sometimes to talk to their manager about their personal finances. They feel vulnerable. It feels like something they don't want to talk about at work, and justifiably so. We are giving them space, within the MP confines, to have that conversation in a little more private and dignified way.

Then all of those requests, once it's determined where they work, what the issue is, and what the financial impact is, go to a centralized email system that is operated by one individual, who then is tasked with the quality control piece, making sure that the information is accurate and robust enough—otherwise, there will be a back-and-forth with the MP—and guarantees a response to the MP within 10 days.

We didn't have that before. Before, it used to go to the different regional desks in my office, which meant that different relationships developed with different MPs' offices. Now there is a very clear process in which questions can be asked that will lead to a success.

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Is it fair to say that we've streamlined the triage process, have clearly identified where the key issue is, and then have given it to the expert to be able to help? That's how I'm going to translate what you said.

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

I think that's absolutely fair to say, and it's exactly what we're hoping.

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

With about a minute and a half to go, I'd like to go back to the second document that you highlighted in your speech. This is about the investment in Phoenix.

During your comments, you threw out the number $645 million. I'm sure that for people watching, the concern is going to be that this is a big number, and they will wonder how it has come to be that.

Also, in the handout, there is a TBD. If either you or any members of the department could quickly make a comment around the breakdown of this $645 million, as well as how we can go about the TBD, it would be appreciated.

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

l'll let Les do the reading.

[Les Linklater]

In terms of the TBD, there is a process—which the comptroller general is leading—following the fall report to the Auditor General, to determine with departments and agencies what their individual expenditures have been on Phoenix, above and beyond their normal pay operations.

Departments serviced by the pay centre were to have realized savings of $70 million a year. Those monies have been left in departments for three years, from last year through this year and and into next year, with the expectation that those funds will be dedicated to HR to pay activities to support staff.

The comptroller general will be reporting on that TBD figure in the coming weeks—in my understanding, by the end of May.

From a PSPC perspective and that of the $645 million, most of the funding has been spent to date on rebuilding capacity, in terms of human resource compensation staff and advisers. We've gone from 550 compensation staff when we went live in 2016 to about 1,400 now, and more are on the way.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Thank you very much.

We now go to Mr. McCauley for five minutes.