Government Operations Committee on April 17th, 2018

[Kyle Peterson, Liberal, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

I think I'm good, Madam Chair.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Thank you.

Does anybody have any questions?

Mr. Drouin, go ahead.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

I may not have five minutes of questions, but one of the complaints we often hear.... Of course, there are those who are not successful and will probably be prone to go to your office. It's like politics. You don't hear politicians complaining that they've had too many votes, but you hear about those who didn't have enough votes.

In terms of the complaints of successful bidders, those who did get a contract, those who are supposed to implement a program or an IT project—God only knows there are many examples we can cite in Canada of failed IT projects—one of the complaints we're hearing is that the way we design contracts is essentially like this: you're buying a Cadillac, but you want to put some wheels on it, so that's going to cost you more, or you want to put a steering wheel on it, and that's going to cost you more. Essentially, these are very basic needs in a contract.

I'm talking about moving away from prescribed contracting or RFPs towards a more outcome-based model, and I'm curious to find out how you would evaluate that. That allows the crown to have a lot more flexibility in terms of who they choose to be their supplier. How do you evaluate that? From your perspective, how would you do that?

Again, congratulations on your new role. You have been there for only two weeks, but I would love to have your thoughts on that. If not now, then I would love to chat in two or three months.

[Alexander Jeglic]

What I can do is give you my preliminary thoughts, but I do think the procurement universe is filled with a lot of grey. There is very little black and white, and I think that on an outcome-based procurement you enhance that level of grey. Does that make my job perhaps more difficult in that you're not necessarily taking a darker shade of grey or a lighter shade of grey and now you're squarely in the middle? Does it potentially complicate the role of the ombudsman? Perhaps, right?

Again, it's too early for me to tell, but that is fundamentally my responsibility, and the neutrality of the position requires us to have that lens to make sure those outcomes are fair for both the supply community and the buyer community. But that in and of itself shouldn't be a rationale to not move forward with some of these initiatives, because I think it is important to experiment while in the procurement phase to find alternatives that are perhaps more productive, simpler, and deliver better results.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

That's great. I imagine that if the government were to choose to move forward toward more outcome-based models, you would probably be looking at your own experience in other jurisdictions or what other jurisdictions are doing with their procurement ombudsmen.

[Alexander Jeglic]

Absolutely, and I have already reached out to my counterpart at the GSA. It's a relationship that I would like to foster, just to better understand from an international perspective how many ombudsmen are in a similar role and what issues they're facing that may be similar or different so that we can bring that experience back to Canada.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

That's great. Thank you, and good luck.

[Alexander Jeglic]

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Mr. McCauley.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

I have one quick question for you.

Mr. Peterson was referring to the cap, the limit. Below that, it goes to you, and above that to dispute resolution.

[Alexander Jeglic]

That's right.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

A lot of the contracts awarded throughout Canada for small business, whether it be for construction of this or that, are relatively low but above your threshold, and aren't high enough to go through the much larger—I don't want to call it a “hassle”—procedure of going through the dispute resolution. Is there a middle ground?

Or is there something we need to pursue to make it more accessible, I guess, for small businesses or Canadian businesses to access that—perhaps your office or perhaps the dispute resolution—without going through all the paperwork and all the work—I don't want to call it a hassle—for that larger thing, which might be more appropriate for...? It's as we saw with the lawsuit for the fixed-wing search and rescue.

[Alexander Jeglic]

I appreciate the question. I think the answer lies in the fact that just because they don't meet the thresholds for a complaint to the office doesn't mean the office can't provide them additional services. They can still act in a non-formal capacity by engaging the department and involving what I would describe as “facilitation” of a conversation between the department and those purchasers or suppliers.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

How best can we get that information out, then, to our SMEs out there? It's one thing to say that it's on the website. Or if you're sitting around the committee, you now know that. How do we best serve Canadians in letting them know about the great work your office does?

[Alexander Jeglic]

I think it's incumbent on the office to continue to promote our activities. We do that through a targeted outreach. We do present ourselves at relevant conferences. We do programming across the country. Again, we try to use social media to the extent possible, and, as you said, there's the website. Those are all various touchpoints that we have and that we continue to look at.

Part of the strategic outlook for the office will be to look at how we can effectively communicate our services so that it does reach a broader audience. Again, I would implore the committee to encourage suppliers who are having issues and coming to your constituency offices and promote the services of the procurement ombudsman's office.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Thank you very much.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Mr. Jowhari.

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Jeglic, I congratulate you on your two weeks. I was quite impressed by your background and the depth of your knowledge. Naturally, there's a great fit, and we look forward to your contribution.

I was impressed by the fact that in two weeks on the job you already have a one-year, two-year, and five-year plan, with four priorities, and that you are already looking into growth of ADR as one of your measures after your mandate of five years. Accomplishing all of that in less than two weeks is admirable.

I want to ask you a question. Naturally you must have done some study around available capacity or capacity within your department to be able to deliver on your priorities and a one-year, two-year, and five-year mandate. I'd like to get some feedback around what your thoughts are around the capacity you have to be able to deliver this mandate.

[Alexander Jeglic]

Sure. Let me just correct one notion: the one-, three-, and five-year plans are more from a vision perspective. They aren't fully articulated. I don't want to overstep what I have done in two weeks. I have not developed a full one-, three-, and five-year plan. However—

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Take the credit when it's given.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

On the capacity side, can you share your thoughts? Do you have the resources you need?

[Alexander Jeglic]

Absolutely, and that's an appreciated question, to be honest. Part of the process of the one-on-one interviews that I'm doing with staff is to assess the competence and skill sets of the existing staff.

I have to say that it's an exceptional calibre of staff. I have a very professional workforce. I feel empowered to make the comments I make due to the information that I've gleaned from the colleagues I work with. I have a very strong senior director cadre. I have a deputy procurement ombudsman who's been in the role. Also, the outgoing interim procurement ombudsman was an effective and exceptional leader, so I step into a very strong organization.

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

How big is your department?

[Alexander Jeglic]

It's actually fewer sub-30 people, so there are between 25 and 30, depending on the time.