Government Operations Committee on April 19th, 2018

[Patrick Borbey]

When I talked about circumstances, I think each department, each deputy head, has a responsibility to examine the hiring practices within their organization and to measure representation. Even though we have good representation numbers across the public service, that does not mean that in some organizations there may not be under-representation—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

But can't I just go to the library and ask them for a breakdown? They gave me a breakdown for overall. They'll give me a breakdown department by department. We can figure out who is not doing that and then target it that way instead of —

[Patrick Borbey]

All I was saying was that the methodology could be applicable for some of those departments that may want to increase representation or that maybe suspect that there is unconscious bias in their staffing decisions. We're just prepared to share the methodology. We're not going to dictate to people to use it or not.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Should we dictate to them, then, if we think the name-blind project...?

[Patrick Borbey]

We have a very delegated, decentralized staffing regime that we've put in place over a number of years. The commission has an oversight role, but the commission does not dictate to departments.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Okay. That's a fair answer.

[Patrick Borbey]

We do use, for example, audit methodology to be able to determine whether departments should be doing a better job or maybe whether we should be a little bit more engaged on certain issues.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Have you identified the departments that need to do a better job?

[Patrick Borbey]

That was not the purpose of this work.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Outside of this work, have you identified those that need to do a better job?

[Patrick Borbey]

I think we are always examining the data on representation, having discussions with deputy heads where there are clearly some gaps, and encouraging them to take proactive measures to be able to bridge some of those gaps.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Okay.

Mr. Blaikie, go ahead.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

You have one and a half minutes, Mr. Blaikie.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

I just want to ask a question about the recruitment side. Obviously, you can have really good hiring practices. That's only going to operate on the candidate pool. I'm just wondering about the extent to which trying to encourage a more diverse initial candidate pool upon which to implement this hiring process is part of the scope of these efforts to have better hiring practices and whether your study included an analysis of the initial pool as opposed to just how the hiring process worked on the candidates who happen to apply.

[Stan Lee]

Every year we conduct a series of outreach activities targeted at specific groups. This is part of the whole idea of ensuring that people are made aware and of generating interest in applying from within various employment groups. We also have these career streams and various inventories that are dedicated to employment equity groups.

The audit will also be looking at what you referred to, which is what happens from the original candidate pool to the pre-selection, but also at the key steps in the hiring process that go beyond the pre-selection.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Thank you.

Ms. Mendès.

[Alexandra Mendes, Liberal, Brossard—Saint-Lambert, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you all for being here today.

Before I go into French, I have a question that has been bugging us here. What on earth does “screen-in rates” mean? I couldn't find a French translation.

[Patrick Borbey]

In the selection process, the very first step after a candidate's application is received is for managers, supported by HR professionals, to determine, out of, say, 500 applicants, which ones meet the essential qualifications for experience. After that, they can go to the next phase. That's a first screening. It does not involve using testing methodology, a collective or individual test, or an interview , which is normally later on in the process. And of course, there are always references at the end as well. Those are the various steps.

So it's that very, very first point where you determine that, out of the 500 applications you've received, the following 200 meet the experience qualifications and the other 300 or whatever do not. That's a decision made by staffing managers.

[Alexandra Mendes, Liberal, Brossard—Saint-Lambert, QC]

So that is screening.

Thank you very much. That helps clarify things for us.

Mr. Lee, I'd like to make a quick comment about the use of gender in French. In the example you gave, the phrase “Je suis diplômé” would take an extra “e” at the end in the case of a female applicant. That is true, but you could capture the same meaning with the phrase “Je détiens un diplôme de”, which would be equivalent to the phrase “I have a degree in” in English. Ways of getting around gender-specific structures in French do exist. Given how rich the language is, it is possible to get around the rules.

I completely understand what you were trying to achieve with your study. I also I understand that you took it upon yourselves to determine whether your methods were valid and effective. However, I can, to some extent, appreciate what Mr. McCauley was getting at with his questions. In his estimation of the government's approach, the public service is very proactive when it comes to recruiting a diverse workforce. Let's call it diversity so as not to include one group and not another.

I think it's valid to call into question some of the factors you ruled out of the pilot project, factors such as knowledge of foreign languages. I say that because knowing a foreign language is useful for a number of jobs in the public service. I mean beyond English and French, our official languages. I'm referring to the ability to speak a foreign language. Obviously, it's important for people who work at Global Affairs Canada, say, to be able to speak a foreign language.

Why did you remove that information from job applications?

[Patrick Borbey]

Again, the point was to ensure our methodology was as fair as possible. However, the information was not removed in cases where knowledge of a foreign language was clearly listed as an asset for the job.

[Alexandra Mendes, Liberal, Brossard—Saint-Lambert, QC]

All right, I see. The information was not removed across the board. It depended on the position in question.

[Stan Lee]

Exactly. That's how it worked, as the president explained. When information was listed in the statement of merit criteria, it was not redacted.

[Alexandra Mendes, Liberal, Brossard—Saint-Lambert, QC]

Very well. Information matching the job description was therefore retained during the process.

[Stan Lee]

Absolutely.

Take, for example, a technical position requiring expertise in Great Lakes water analysis. When an applicant had experience doing that in Lake Erie, for instance, we did not redact the name Lake Erie. Similarly, that information would be revealed in the case of an applicant who had done that type of work in, say, Lake Titicaca, even though we know it is in Peru and refers to a geographical location. The information would all depend on the job criteria.

[Alexandra Mendes, Liberal, Brossard—Saint-Lambert, QC]

I see. It was just to gain a clearer understanding.

Now, I'd like to pick up on one of your findings. You indicated that the pilot may have shown a reduction in screen-in rates, and I'd like to know why.