Government Operations Committee on May 3rd, 2018

[Alexandra Mendes, Liberal, Brossard—Saint-Lambert, QC]

To start the process.

[Brian Pagan]

Exactly. Thereafter, they become part of the reference levels of those departments and would clearly be the responsibility of the appropriate minister for study at the appropriate committee and they—

[Alexandra Mendes, Liberal, Brossard—Saint-Lambert, QC]

They would be part of—

[Brian Pagan]

—would be reflected in future years in main estimates of that department.

[Alexandra Mendes, Liberal, Brossard—Saint-Lambert, QC]

Also as part of their departmental reports, I'm guessing.

[Brian Pagan]

That's correct.

[Alexandra Mendes, Liberal, Brossard—Saint-Lambert, QC]

That may be also something that will be updated monthly?

[A voice]

Annually.

[Alexandra Mendes, Liberal, Brossard—Saint-Lambert, QC]

Or annually? Yes. Okay. That clarifies some things.

There's another question that the Parliamentary Budget Officer raised. It's about the amounts related to the $7 billion. As of April 16, there was only $221 million of the total of $7 billion that had been spread over 13 unique measures. He's comparing it with last year's where, at the same level, 19 budget measures of $994 million had been allocated, more or less at the same time. His claim is that we will be presented with fewer vetted budgetary measures. What is your comment to that? How would you explain this?

[Brian Pagan]

It is really a function of timing. As this committee would know, the budget was tabled on February 27. There was an adjournment of Parliament thereafter for a two-week break in March. They came back for two weeks, and then there was a two-week break for Easter, returning on April 16.

The reality is, Parliament was not in session, and there were no Treasury Board meetings, so there were, quite frankly, very few opportunities for Treasury Board to conduct budget 2018 business. To table the document on April 16 meant that we were completing it by the end of March. Last year, we tabled the supplementary estimates in late April or early May, so there was a longer period after the budget for Treasury Board to conduct its business.

It is a function of timing. Every year there is a different parliamentary calendar, and this will impact our ability to bring the budget items to Treasury Board. It depends on that schedule.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Ratansi, you have one minute.

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

I have a quick question, please.

Did you ever do bottom-line budgeting?

[Brian Pagan]

We'd be going back many, many years.

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

You've always done line-by-line budgeting.

[Brian Pagan]

Our current process is such that Treasury Board will vet an initiative and provide approval, and then thereafter, there can be a review or a renewal. If it is time-limited funding, we call those sunsetters. In fact, many of the initiatives Ms. Mendès referred to were sunsetting initiatives that have been reviewed by Treasury Board where we made recommendations to the Minister of Finance, and he accepted those recommendations and has included them in the budget.

There is a review of initiatives, either because they are sunsetting or because we will periodically go in to evaluate and review programming.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Deltell, you have seven minutes.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Ladies and gentlemen, what a pleasure to see you all again. I have three topics to discuss with you.

First of all, I'd like to talk about the financial aspect of the G7 Summit. Before I do, however, I would like to reassure all those present that our party is of course in favour of the G7 and this summit. What's more, we MPs for the Quebec City region are delighted to be the hosts, but obviously we have certain concerns given the public spending involved.

I would also like to reiterate that we unequivocally support every expenditure that serves to protect our citizens and allow those who wish to protest to do so safely. We do recognize, however that this will mean spending a lot of money.

The baseline budget to host the G7 is approximately $340 million, which is clearly a huge sum of money. We do understand that these are the usual amounts involved when one hosts a G7 Summit. Costs go up every year. At first glance, there aren't any unnecessary expenditures.

I am from Quebec City and I obviously know a lot of people over there. These people know me and talk to me, and they are very worried that the expenses might get out of control, which would be regrettable.

I have a question for the Treasury Board Secretariat representatives. Is there someone within the Secretariat that keeps track of all G7 expenditures, or is it up to each department?

[Brian Pagan]

Mr. Deltell, thank you for the question.

The G7 Summit is an event that involves many departments. I think I am correct in saying that the expenditures were presented to Parliament in the supplementary estimates (C) of the last fiscal year, as were the services to be provided by the RCMP,

Canada Border Services Agency, Public Safety, and Citizenship and Immigration.

Many departments have has to coordinate their efforts to organize this event. They have all identified their needs.

At the Treasury Board Secretariat, we studied the plans and programs submitted by the departments and we have done our due diligence to establish that the amounts are correct. There will be a follow-up to ensure that each department keeps to its budget.

[Taki Sarantakis]

Each department is responsible for its own initiatives.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Is there someone within Treasury Board who keeps a watchful eye over each of these expenditures?

Please understand that we are in favour. We want it to happen. That said, when we are faced with such a deadline and security issues, and you can never have too much security, there is a risk of overspending. I am not saying that this is what is happening, but the process is ongoing. As I have said, however, we are in favour.

Is there someone at Treasury Board who has the role of watch dog?

[Brian Pagan]

There is a department that has the role of leader for each horizontal initiative. Consequently, we have a program at Treasury Board to follow up with that department.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Right. As I have previously stated, we want things to work, but we do not want things to cost too much.

I would like now to talk about computers and the Canadian Digital Service.

We know that whenever we talk about computers or digital services, expenses will be high. We all realize this. I am not doing too badly because I have had the same phone for three years now. I believe that it is the very first time that one of my electronic devices has lasted more than two years. With digital devices, however, costs have a way of getting out of control. We subscribe to a company's services because we have to change our equipment every two years.

Keeping to this topic, I see that Treasury Board is asking for $233 million in vote 1 of the main estimates. Last year, it was $222 million. The Canadian Digital Service is responsible for most of the increase. Just as I asked regarding the G7, I would like to know if you are following up on these expenses.

If you are, what kind of work are you doing to ensure that there are no cost overruns or, as we say in Quebec, to keep us from falling into a digital hell?

[Renée LaFontaine, Chief Financial Officer and Assistant Secretary, Corporate Services Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat]

Perhaps I can start on that one. Are we referring to the Canadian digital service? The Canadian digital service is actually funded for three years. We are tracking their budget. This is one of the sunsetting programs Brian talked about earlier. In the second year, they've increased our main estimates by about $8.5 million and we're tracking their results. In the third year, as they grow—they are hiring experts focused on the new digital economy, and we will be spending $12 million next year—they have to go back to cabinet and demonstrate the results they've achieved. New decisions will be made on an ongoing basis.

Does that answer your question?

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Yes. What I would like to know is how sure we are that this process will work and will stay more than two years. As I said to you, each and every time, when it's time for us to spend on an informatics issue, in our private life or for the business...For the government it's ticket season—you renew it every two years and then you have to spend another $1 million. How sure are we that it will stay more than two years?

[Renée LaFontaine]

Well, the money sunsets, and the other thing is that we have set up indicators. What we consider to be success for the Canadian digital service is that the applications they develop, the services they improve, the digitization that they accomplish are completed on time with a reasonable cost per transaction. Hopefully, the service costs will go down, because that's the whole point of digitization, and there will be satisfaction from the clients that Canadians are serving.