Evidence of meeting #131 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was budget.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Patrick Williams
Jean-Denis Fréchette  Parliamentary Budget Officer, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer
Mostafa Askari  Deputy Parliamentary Budget Officer, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer
Jason Stanton  Financial Analyst, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer
Matthew Shea  Chief Financial Officer and Assistant Deputy Minister, Corporate Services, Privy Council Office
Marian Campbell Jarvis  Assistant Secretary to the Cabinet, Social Development Policy, Privy Council Office
Rodney Ghali  Assistant Secretary to the Cabinet, Impact and Innovation Unit, Privy Council Office
Shawn Tupper  Assistant Secretary to the Cabinet, Economic and Regional Development Policy, Privy Council Office

12:30 p.m.

Assistant Secretary to the Cabinet, Impact and Innovation Unit, Privy Council Office

Rodney Ghali

The impact Canada initiative was launched in budget 2017 as a whole-of-government approach to accelerate what we call outcomes-based funding approaches. These are approaches that governments around the world have used with respect to public service spending. They orient the spending toward outcomes, as opposed to activities and outputs.

We launched the smart cities challenge last fall, which was one of the signature programs announced in budget 2017. The clean tech challenge was also announced in budget 2017. There are going to be five separate challenges being launched in the clean tech space over the next several months, the first one being this week. Those are the two main initiatives.

We're also working in areas such as indigenous housing, growing perishable foods in the north, addressing Canada's opioid crisis, and looking at marine conservation. These are initiatives we're working on in close collaboration with all the responsible departments and agencies, as well as outside stakeholders. The first tranche of initiatives, 10 or so in total, will unfold over the next 12 months.

As we test out these new partnership models, these new financing models, we will be scaling up across all discretionary grants and contributions funding. The idea is that at some point the initiative should come to an end, once we see success in it, but that will take time.

12:30 p.m.

Liberal

Kyle Peterson Liberal Newmarket—Aurora, ON

Thank you for that.

I want to ask a question that might be a bit technical in nature. PCO is there to offer advice to cabinet. According to the departmental plan, one of the two indicators used for this result is the “[p]ercentage of Cabinet documents distributed to Ministers that meet the Privy Council Office's guidance on drafting Cabinet documents”.

How was that guidance arrived at, and why only 50%? Is that an interim goal, or would 100% be better? Can you elaborate on the process that went into that?

12:30 p.m.

Assistant Secretary to the Cabinet, Social Development Policy, Privy Council Office

Marian Campbell Jarvis

Related to the gender-based analysis question, but not exclusively, there is a structure and a format for developing and writing cabinet proposals, the memoranda to cabinet. PCO has developed a due diligence tool that supports the analysis and the thinking around bringing forward memoranda to cabinet. For example, there is gender-based analysis and ensuring that gender and other intersectional features, such as accessibility issues or impact on visible minorities, are also incorporated into that analysis.

Another feature would be looking at treaty rights and whether they have been taken into account, as well as results in performance management frameworks and funding. Really, it's a checklist, if you will, for the good conduct of policy analysis in bringing forward MPs' memoranda to cabinet.

12:35 p.m.

Liberal

Kyle Peterson Liberal Newmarket—Aurora, ON

The target is 50%. Why is the target not greater?

12:35 p.m.

Assistant Secretary to the Cabinet, Social Development Policy, Privy Council Office

Marian Campbell Jarvis

When we bring in a new tool, there's always a period of adjustment. There are also memoranda to cabinet that have already been developed and are in the queue, and we are bringing forward other proposals as they come. It's really a transitional measure.

12:35 p.m.

Liberal

Kyle Peterson Liberal Newmarket—Aurora, ON

Could that target increase as we go further in time?

12:35 p.m.

Assistant Secretary to the Cabinet, Social Development Policy, Privy Council Office

12:35 p.m.

Liberal

Kyle Peterson Liberal Newmarket—Aurora, ON

I want to talk about the department in general. How are we on targets in the plan? Do you see any growth in human resources in the future and other capital investments that might be necessary as more programs are developed and matured throughout the term of the PCO? Are there any big changes on the horizon?

12:35 p.m.

Chief Financial Officer and Assistant Deputy Minister, Corporate Services, Privy Council Office

Matthew Shea

There are no big changes on the horizon. What's in the plan is what we plan to spend this year, both from an FTE and dollar perspective. Budget 2016 gave us a significant amount of money to do some infrastructure investments, both from an IT and physical assets perspective. Many of those projects are finished, and some are continuing for another year or two. A lot of work has been done in the area of security, in particular, but also IT and our ability to meet the needs of ministers in today's day and age. That is not something that will change.

We will always adapt to the priorities of the day, and that may mean changes, not necessarily to the FTE size but maybe to the mix of FTEs, the skill sets we look for, that type of thing. We try to be a nimble organization, to the extent that we can.

12:35 p.m.

Liberal

Kyle Peterson Liberal Newmarket—Aurora, ON

Some of those changes wouldn't necessarily have an impact on the budget numbers.

12:35 p.m.

Chief Financial Officer and Assistant Deputy Minister, Corporate Services, Privy Council Office

Matthew Shea

No, it's a plan internally for us, to make sure we're planning ahead as to what our needs are today and for the future.

12:35 p.m.

Liberal

Kyle Peterson Liberal Newmarket—Aurora, ON

Are you able to attract and retain human resources? Are there any issues on that front?

12:35 p.m.

Chief Financial Officer and Assistant Deputy Minister, Corporate Services, Privy Council Office

Matthew Shea

We don't have an issue with attracting individuals. PCO is an employer of choice within the federal government. Our turnover is probably higher than that of some other departments, partly by the nature of what we do. It is certainly a dynamic organization. We hire some of the best and brightest in government.

12:35 p.m.

Liberal

Kyle Peterson Liberal Newmarket—Aurora, ON

Thank you.

12:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

Colleagues, as I mentioned earlier, we have a bit of committee business to discuss, so I would like to suspend around 12:50, which will give us time for two more five-minute interventions.

Mr. Kelly, go ahead.

12:35 p.m.

Conservative

Pat Kelly Conservative Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB

Thank you.

Thank you for being here today.

Part of your plan is to support an open and accountable government by providing regular updates on the mandate tracker website. One of the items characterized as “underway with challenges” is from the finance minister's mandate letter to balance the budget by 2019-20. That's “underway with challenges”.

Can you tell me when the budget will be balanced?

12:35 p.m.

Assistant Secretary to the Cabinet, Impact and Innovation Unit, Privy Council Office

Rodney Ghali

I would respectfully defer that question, obviously, to the Minister of Finance.

12:35 p.m.

Conservative

Pat Kelly Conservative Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB

But you said that it's under way.

12:35 p.m.

Assistant Secretary to the Cabinet, Impact and Innovation Unit, Privy Council Office

Rodney Ghali

Yes, as you point out, the mandate letter tracker is an instrument that we use to publicly communicate progress on the government's over 350 mandate letter commitments and individual commitments. Their progress would best be addressed to the departments for which they are responsible.

12:35 p.m.

Conservative

Pat Kelly Conservative Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB

You suggest that I ask the Minister of Finance.

12:35 p.m.

Assistant Secretary to the Cabinet, Impact and Innovation Unit, Privy Council Office

Rodney Ghali

We are not in a position to comment on the actual—

12:35 p.m.

Conservative

Pat Kelly Conservative Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB

The Minister of Finance has been asked that question literally dozens of times, maybe hundreds of times, in the House of Commons and at committee. He's been asked repeatedly, and has never even acknowledged that it is part of his mandate. He won't say the words. He just ignores the questions whenever he is asked.

Is it appropriate to still have that “underway with challenges”? Perhaps you should have a category of “abandoned”. That would be more transparent than saying that something is under way when clearly it is not under way. There has been no recognition by Finance that this, in fact, is part of the mandate, and something that is under way.

Is it open and transparent to say that balancing the budget is under way if the minister will not answer the question and doesn't acknowledge that it's part of his mandate?

12:40 p.m.

Assistant Secretary to the Cabinet, Impact and Innovation Unit, Privy Council Office

Rodney Ghali

I appreciate the question, but I'm not best placed to respond to that.

12:40 p.m.

Conservative

Pat Kelly Conservative Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB

I'll cede the rest of my time to Mr. McCauley.

12:40 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

I have a couple of quick questions. Following up on that, who updates the website, then? It's in your departmental plan, and it's part of your work to provide an open and accountable government. Does Finance say, “Enter this”?