Government Operations Committee on May 22nd, 2018

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Are the allocations on the Treasury Board site?

[Brian Pagan]

Yes, and there will be additional information in InfoBase. Andrew is going to demonstrate our budget tracker for you when we get to that session.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

When will see a breakdown of the money broken out as it is or should be in departmental plans? If we look at what has been posted so far in the allocations from Treasury Board, it has:

Securing Market Access for Canada’s Agriculture and Agri-Food Products.

This funding will support the agricultural and agri-food sector in maintaining and opening new international markets and to address capacity gaps in the Canadian Food Inspection Agency as a result of previously negotiated trade agreements.

It doesn't say what that money's going to be used for, whether it's staffing or trips, etc. When will we actually see a proper breakdown?

Again, it gets back to the government asking us to pre-approve $7.5 billion without the departments being able to defend what that money is for. We've had them before us. One of the departments says, we don't know what the back part of the breakdown is; we were just told by Treasury Board to put it in.

We can't even request the information from the departments, because they don't even know what's in the money that they're asking us to pre-approve. You said we're going to get more breakdown on the monthly updates. But we have the one from the allocation for Treasury Board and there's no added information.

[Brian Pagan]

Respectfully, Mr. McCauley, we're mixing up apples and oranges here. Vote 40 exists to be able to enhance transparency for Parliament so that Parliament understands how they are voting on main estimates that will be reconciled to the budget. It is intended to provide that alignment and transparency in terms of the appropriations anticipated for the year.

In terms of the program approvals, as you know, a number of items are working their way through the approval process now, and when those projects are approved they will be listed or added to the website, which already includes the information on sunsetting programs that have been approved.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

For these items that were updated April 12, have they gone through the TBS process?

[Brian Pagan]

Sorry, which table are you referring to?

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

This one, “Allocations from Treasury Board Central Votes”. They've gone through the process?

[Brian Pagan]

Yes, they have.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

So they've gone through the process, they've been approved by Treasury Board, but we still don't even have the data of what that money's going to be used for. We don't have a breakdown. That's what I'm asking. The government's asked for pre-approval of $7.5 billion without the departments even apparently knowing what the money is for. Why don't we actually see—

[Brian Pagan]

On anything that's been approved by Treasury Board, the department or myself can provide information on the votes involved. There would information about FTEs. In fact, I believe there was a question either from this committee or a question in the House that sought information by vote and FTEs, and that has been provided through our parliamentary affairs office.

That is the case with everything else in vote 40. As it's approved, we will be able to list information in terms of where that allocation fits in terms of the departmental program inventory and the votes and personnel information related to that program.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

I'll be blunt. It seems rather lacking, the information. You've approved it, it's gone through the Treasury Board submission. You may want to have a look. I think it's very lacking and certainly doesn't provide transparency on how the pre-approved money is being spent.

You've commented in your handout, under “Advantages” on page 5, “information is used to report to Parliamentarians (DPs)”, departmental plans, but we have $7.5 billion, which, when you back out, say, transfers for infrastructure, it's almost 10% of the entire spending. It doesn't actually show up in the departmental plans. It says, “The robustness, reliability and usefulness of this information is being tested…”and “As departments identify their plans (DPs).” Then it says “At this point, we know...” and “Overall cost of a program linked to an organization’s Core Responsibilities.”

Again, all this money is not in the department plans. We see no results expected for the $7.5 billion. It goes counter to what you've actually presented to us about openness, information being used to report to parliamentarians the departmental plans. The money's not in the departmental plans.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Thank you, Mr. McCauley.

We'll now go to Mr. Blaikie for seven minutes.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

I was just wondering if you could tell the committee how many of the vote 40 items have been to Treasury Board and been approved since the tabling of the main estimates?

[Brian Pagan]

I don't have the table in front of me that Mr. McCauley's referring to, but from memory, it was approximately 33 at the time of tabling main estimates. And since then, as the president mentioned at our last appearance, there were two two-week breaks between the tabling of the budget and the tabling of the main estimates, so that obviously interrupted Treasury Board business. Since Treasury Board has returned on the week of April 16, there have been several meetings and many budget items presented and approved. I don't have the actual numbers. Those will be listed, as per our commitment, on a monthly basis, and the first listing or the first update, I understand, is for the first week of June, June 3 or 4. We'll see an update to the listing at that point.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Okay, so you don't have any idea how many have actually gone through Treasury Board?

[Brian Pagan]

I can tell you that there's been a good number, but I don't have a specific number.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Would it be possible to provide that number to the committee earlier in the process?

[Brian Pagan]

There are some matters of confidence in terms of Treasury Board business, and I'll confer with the president's office. There is a commitment to update this list monthly, and that list will be updated in the first week of June. Beyond that....

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

I just think for us because we're under time constraints in terms of our study, and in fact, we have less time to study the estimates than we once did, about six weeks less, and we're being asked to approve over $7 billion worth of funding. It would be nice to have that information earlier. Not only would it be nice, but I think it would be appropriate for parliamentarians to have that information earlier to get a sense of the promise that was made by the President of the Treasury Board that these items would be approved in short order and that Parliament would be informed of that progress.

While I appreciate that the government wants to report to the public and that they have a specific period in which they're going to do that, I don't think there's anything inappropriate about helping parliamentarians make a better informed decision on the timeline. We're being asked to make that decision.

There is some question, under the new framework, about less reporting at the subprogram and the sub-subprogram level. I just wanted to be clear, though, in terms of wording for appropriation bills. When we talk about new programs, I'm just looking for where new programs are defined, or what it takes to establish a new program. I know the language in the appropriation bill is about new grants. I'm just wondering if establishing a new grant is effectively establishing a new program, and vice versa, or if there's a distinction between new grants and new programs.

[Brian Pagan]

There's a very important distinction here. Every grant must be listed and approved through the estimates process, and in many cases those grants are part of larger programs, but in other cases, they are a stand-alone program. We do make a distinction between a program and a grant. All grants have to be listed and approved. Programs can be an amalgam of all kinds of activity, which includes counter service, grants to third party organizations, and studies with stakeholders and partners.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

How does a parliamentarian typically come to know when a new grant is establishing a new program?

[Brian Pagan]

In the main estimates, we will break out the core responsibilities, the results expectations for the department. The programs are actually approved by the executive. They are not approved by Parliament. And if I may, this opens up a theme that both you and Mr. McCauley have raised, which is the programs related to budget 2018. Respectfully, Parliament does not approve programs. The executive organizes the work of departments into programs, and they present that for information.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Now that's only true if a new program doesn't require a new statutory authority. If a new program required a new statutory authority, then it.... So, in fact, programs are approved by Parliament because you need statutory authority from Parliament in order to proceed with a program.

[Brian Pagan]

There are some programs—

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Within the existing statutory authorities, programs are decided by the executive. But. ultimately, they have approval by Parliament through statute.