Evidence of meeting #146 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was plan.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

William Robson  President and Chief Executive Officer, C.D. Howe Institute
Sheri Benson  Saskatoon West, NDP
Gérard Deltell  Louis-Saint-Laurent, CPC
Yves Giroux  Parliamentary Budget Officer, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer
Jason Jacques  Senior Director, Costing and Budgetary Analysis, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer
Jean Yip  Scarborough—Agincourt, Lib.

5:15 p.m.

Parliamentary Budget Officer, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer

Yves Giroux

Yes. The government could still introduce ad hoc measures to respond to an emerging crisis. It's happened in the past. For example, in 2001 there was a December budget to respond to the crisis of September 11. It's possible to have budget documents or updates on steroids, so to speak, that include budgetary measures. It's happened quite frequently in the history of the country.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

Right. Do you think that if we had an aligned fixed budget date and estimates coming out shortly afterwards, it would address a lot of our inability to follow the money, so to speak?

5:15 p.m.

Parliamentary Budget Officer, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer

Yves Giroux

I think it would certainly make your job easier to understand what's in the mains and how that reconciles with the government's priorities expressed through a budget.

Right now, I think having the mains reflect only part of the government's priorities is not very helpful, because a chunk of it has to be found in the in the supplementaries. So having more, if not all, of the budget money in the mains would make your job—and mine too, to be honest—easier.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

How much time is left?

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

Thirty seconds.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB

I'm fine then, thanks.

It's difficult to ask and respond in 30 seconds, so I'll let it go.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

Madam Ratansi, I have you and Mr. Drouin splitting time.

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

Yasmin Ratansi Liberal Don Valley East, ON

Mr. Drouin decided not to speak.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

So it will be only you.

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

Yasmin Ratansi Liberal Don Valley East, ON

Yes, it's only me.

The young man doesn't want to ask questions.

5:15 p.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

Yasmin Ratansi Liberal Don Valley East, ON

Thank you, Mr. Giroux, for being here. I'm glad to see that your expertise as an economist and on the federal budget and government expenditure system is going to be very useful for us here.

You allayed Ms. Mendès' fears about the MPs' pension contribution.

The interesting thing is there are so many different methodologies. There are so many permutations and combinations that I found it quite alarming that this man could compare us to Detroit and that he could mix up our governance in the financial institution systems with the United States. We have a very strong governance structure. We did not allow subprime mortgages. We have our banks on a different.... Anyway, that's besides the point.

You talked about challenges to accessing data. The previous parliamentary budget officer had huge challenges with CRA when he was trying to assess the revenues lost by the government for those tax evasions, not the properly legitimate tax vehicles. I have to be careful what words I use; as an accountant I do have to be very careful what terminology I use.

You have been the chief data information officer for CRA. How will you ensure that you get that information without having to go to court? How will you ensure that the revenues that are duly required by the Government of Canada do come to Canada?

5:15 p.m.

Parliamentary Budget Officer, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer

Yves Giroux

The second part, sadly, is not part of my mandate. I'm not the tax collector.

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

Yasmin Ratansi Liberal Don Valley East, ON

I know.

5:15 p.m.

Parliamentary Budget Officer, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer

Yves Giroux

That's up to CRA. They have some very aggressive and efficient people at CRA. Some of our citizens experience that the hard way.

5:15 p.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

5:15 p.m.

Parliamentary Budget Officer, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer

Yves Giroux

On the first part of your question, on how will I get information from the CRA, knowing how to ask the question and what to ask for is often key. CRA is by its very nature a risk averse institution. They have the privacy of Canadians' tax information at the top of their concerns. Anything that could be remotely seen as infringing the privacy legislation, they take with great caution.

That means even what we call “residual disclosure” in the parlance of economists and data geeks. For example, even if they remove the name, address, postal code and social insurance number, there is a possibility that somebody could link one tax record to a particular individual based on the characteristics of that tax record. Tax records include lots of information.

They are very worried about residual disclosure. That's why they will want to aggregate as much as possible the data that they send. But there are ways to ask questions and to ask for data that do not risk residual disclosure. In my former capacity, I worked with the previous PBO to ensure that he was able to get access to the information that he needed by directing him to what was feasible within the confines of the law. The request for information was totally legitimate, but the level of detail was probably too fine for the comfort of the CRA.

By aggregating the tax records that he was looking for, that's how it was possible to come to an agreement that was satisfactory for both parties.

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

Thanks very much.

5:20 p.m.

Liberal

Yasmin Ratansi Liberal Don Valley East, ON

That's it?

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

Isn't that something? Time is so precious.

5:20 p.m.

Liberal

Yasmin Ratansi Liberal Don Valley East, ON

That's not five minutes.

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

That's five minutes.

5:20 p.m.

Liberal

Yasmin Ratansi Liberal Don Valley East, ON

My God, it felt like two.

Excuse me, Mr. McCauley.

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

Madam Mathyssen, welcome to the committee.

We have time for one three-minute intervention, should you wish.

5:20 p.m.

NDP

Irene Mathyssen NDP London—Fanshawe, ON

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Giroux, thank you for being here.

I have so many questions. Madam Ratansi actually inspired one. I will set it aside because I'd like your take on health care and the cost of health care.

Quebec just had an election and the new government is talking about privatizing some health services. We've seen that in B.C. in the past with surgeries, and in Ontario with some surgeries and diagnostic tests. That bothers me very much because of the erosion. Very clearly, there have been cuts in health transfers over the years. I wondered if there hadn't been those cuts to the health transfers would the provinces be in a more sustainable position.

Would we, for example, not be seeing the kinds of rumblings and decisions that we're hearing in Quebec and seeing in Ontario and B.C.?