Government Operations Committee on Nov. 1st, 2018

[Brian Pagan]

That's a terrific question. The short answer is no. When the estimates were tabled, when the budget was tabled, departmental plans did not reflect the priorities announced and the funding made available in budget 2018. That is—

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

But do you see the problem there? If departments realize that a rather large sum of money is available, perhaps they can start finding reasons for that money—money that they may otherwise have had to justify in the first place.

[Brian Pagan]

Just to be very clear, the budget process is not based on the Department of Finance just doling money out willy-nilly. This is based on expressed needs by departments. The minister has written to the Minister of Finance requesting a certain sum of money to do a certain program or fulfill a certain mandate commitment. That is scrutinized very vigorously by the Department of Finance to make sure that the funding is in fact required and is going to serve the government's objectives.

Departments are not surprised to get budget money. They've asked for it, and they know in some level of detail what they will be doing with it. It does take time to go from finding out that you got money in the budget to actually working with your program partners and negotiating contracts to be able to present detailed terms and conditions. That explains in part why we're at 45% allocated.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you.

I want to change topics now and address Phoenix. The Auditor General is still not terribly happy with how this program is being dealt with. We know that since the implementation of this pay system, more than $1 billion has been spent trying to fix it.

I have a lot of constituents who are affected by this and whose lives have been placed on hold, going through tremendous strain. I'm just wondering. From Treasury Board's perspective, how much farther down the rabbit hole do we have to go before we actually see this problem fixed? I mean, how much longer are we going to have to wait? Do you have an estimate on how much more money will be spent to fix it?

[Brian Pagan]

Karen may have some detail on that.

Mr. MacGregor, there are some elements to your question that are well beyond my remit in the expenditure management sector. You mentioned the monies already spent. The comptroller general did a report in the late spring that suggested an amount going forward. To my knowledge, that remains the best number out there in terms of the cost of fixing Phoenix.

Beyond that, as to the timing and where PSPC is at with system upgrades, I think those are questions—

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Has the department provided some advice as to their best estimates? Is that not a topic of discussion at the upper levels of Treasury Board, about how much longer this could go on for?

[Brian Pagan]

I'm not part of those discussions.

[Karen Cahill]

Nor am I part of those discussions. It's not something that we're involved with.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Unfortunately, we're completely out of time for that. Perhaps you can add to your answer at our next intervention, which will come from Mr. Drouin, for seven minutes.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I, too, would like to wish Mr. Pagan a good retirement after long years of service to Canada. Before you go, I do have a few questions for you.

With regard to the budget implementation vote in vote 40, it's my understanding that the Government of Canada is not the only jurisdiction doing this. Is that right?

[Brian Pagan]

That's correct. Budget implementation votes in some form or other exist in the provinces. We've looked at, from memory.... Manitoba and, I believe, Nova Scotia have elements of a budget implementation vote.

As the minister has said, there are other models out there. He's especially fond of how Australia does its budgeting process. That's something we continue to study with great interest, in terms of how processes are sequenced and when decisions are made.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Thank you.

I have a quick question on horizontal items. You said that there are 21 horizontal items listed. That was provided to Parliament. What is the process for horizontal initiatives to be determined? I know that it's two or more departments. What kicks off that process? One could make the argument that any initiative in government should involve more than one department. What's that trigger effect?

[Brian Pagan]

To an earlier question, government is complicated, so any one initiative is not necessarily the same as another.

Generally, we're looking at a three-step process where there will be a policy discussion, a policy decision of government to say that this is something we want to do. Then there's a budget decision to say that this is how much we're going to spend on it. Then we see the TB approvals and we bring that to Parliament for approval. That's the general playbook.

What we see here in the 21 initiatives is consistent with that. There would be policy discussions at cabinet about, for instance, the LGBT Purge class action. This is a liability facing the government. We need to do something as a government to respond to this. There was a discussion about how best to formulate that response and what departments would be involved in that response. What you see here before you is that the program is being addressed by National Defence, primarily for legal costs and some of the challenges to date. The Treasury Board Secretariat is holding the money in their central vote and will be allocating that money once the class is settled by the courts.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Thank you.

With regard to the first nations water and waste-water initiative, there's $423.1 million allocated to that. Do we have a number in terms of how many communities will be affected by this?

[Brian Pagan]

I don't have a precise number on the number of communities, Mr. Drouin. We can certainly try to get that for you. The minister mentioned earlier the progress that has been made. I think he mentioned 74 water advisories already cleared, with the expectation that this additional funding will lift all advisories by 2021. I believe that is the time frame.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Thanks.

I probably have time for one more question.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

You have two and a half minutes.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Regarding capital investments in support of “Strong, Secure, Engaged”, you have a number here of $282.2 million. What's that for?

[Brian Pagan]

This is an assortment of what we call minor capital in smaller projects. Typically, anything over $100 million is classified as a major capital project, such as ships, planes and major weapon systems. Those will have their own profile in the estimates.

Underneath that is just a wide assortment of requirements for the department related to base infrastructure, labs, barracks and minor vehicles to taxi troops back and forth. There's a significant expenditure, as well, related to the upgrade of the new headquarters—the former Nortel building. They're finalizing the retrofit of that, and the staff have already begun to move in. There are elements related to the upgrade of that new headquarters.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Colleagues, we have time for two more five-minute interventions. We'll start with Mr. Deltell. I understand you may be splitting your time with Mr. McCauley. I'll give you a signal when there are two minutes left.

[Gérard Deltell]

Fantastic. Thank you so much, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Pagan, it is my turn to thank you for your services to the country. My best wishes for your future activities. I also extend my best wishes especially to those who will succeed you. I hope they will continue the fine tradition that you have established and applied all these years.

I would like to talk to you about the G7 Summit, held in the Charlevoix region. Page 1-13 reports $80,577,294 in expenditures. I would like to know whether that is part of the $605 million in expenditures announced last June or whether that is an additional expenditure.

[Brian Pagan]

Thank you for the question, Mr. Deltell.

I will check the exact amounts, but I think that is part of the costs announced by the government. In that case, it is carried forward. The amounts already available are carried forward to the current year so they are available to both departments.

[Gérard Deltell]

I see. The $80,577,294 is part of the $605 million. So it is not an additional amount. That's good.

I would like to raise another matter with you. Under vote 10a, for the Treasury Board Secretariat, there is an amount of $275.7 million; in past years, it was $3 million. I would like to know why the current amount is 80 times higher. What is the reason for this dramatic increase?

[Brian Pagan]

Mr. Deltell, that is a good point. Two major projects account for the increase in this vote. First is the

LGBT class action.

Until the courts determine the amounts resulting from this action, these funds are held by Treasury Board. They will be paid out later.