Government Operations Committee on Nov. 27th, 2018

[Jean-François Béland]

When we travel around the world, we often realize that companies in China and other countries aren't adapting to the market forces, but to the environmental reality, air quality or other factors of this nature. The countries are adapting. We can see that clean technology is a rapidly growing environmental market in China, and we're seeing the same thing everywhere. Obviously, the reason for this phenomenon isn't necessarily related to the market reality, but to the environmental reality. We're seeing it more and more, and unfortunately, they're...

[Denis Leclerc]

Take the example of aluminum in Quebec. Now, with the new technology and the use of hydroelectricity to produce it, Canada's aluminum is the greenest in the world. Admittedly, it's difficult to increase the price when selling aluminum on the market, since aluminum is a commodity. However, let's think about the fact that aluminum users will increasingly look for green aluminum.

Take our cellphones, for example. They contain aluminum.

[Gérard Deltell]

They also contain oil.

[Denis Leclerc]

They contain oil and precious metals. Many parts come from Canada, but there's also aluminum. Manufacturers are increasingly looking for green aluminum or products with a low carbon footprint.

I want to draw your attention to something in this regard. The carbon footprint isn't the only issue at stake. We also have what's called the environmental record of products. We'll be focusing more and more on water, waste and even the social impact in terms of jobs and the direct impact on the community. This is already happening in certain places, and we can see that, very soon, it will be happening everywhere.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Blaikie, you're up. Hopefully we can get Madam Petrevan engaged in this dialogue as well.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

I hope to.

I'll start by asking Mr. Leclerc a question.

Earlier, you mentioned that the purchasing power of Crown corporations was significant and that it could be used to promote a green agenda. In the first hour, we were told that Crown corporations weren't part of the greening government strategy.

Would this strategy be more effective if Crown corporations were included?

[Denis Leclerc]

There's always room for improvement. Take the example of Crown corporations, such as museums. When we think about it, museums are extraordinary places to test energy efficiency technologies, especially air treatment technologies. All these Crown corporations are a good area for action, more so than the Department of Finance, for example. That's why we must assess their full potential to test clean technology. It isn't always necessary to invest millions or hundreds of millions of dollars into water treatment, for example. Smaller-scale and lower-cost clean technology exists.

In Finland, Helsinki wants to become the greenest capital in the world. How will it do so? It will demonstrate its clean technology in different parts of the government, including Crown corporations, or their Finnish equivalent.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Thank you.

Mr. Béland, do you have a brief comment?

[Jean-François Béland]

I want to say that if the state decided that the Crown corporation needs to be in this sector,

the notion of green government should fall under the public interest of Crown corporations in the world, such as VIA Rail or Atomic Energy of Canada Limited.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Thank you.

On procurement in general, I'll turn to Ms. Petrevan.

VIA is an interesting reference. I'm hearing today that VIA is looking at contracting with a German company that does production in California, I think, for some of its new trains in southern Ontario and Quebec.

When we talk about green procurement, can you talk a bit to the role that international trade deals play? In terms of how government departments or Crown corporations procure their materials, we don't have provisions in trade agreements. Often, if you adopt a policy of saying that we want to buy something closer to home or we want to use a Canadian company because we think it's going to be more green, you can instead be accused of presenting a non-tariff trade barrier and be blocked from doing those things.

What import does a growing network of international trade deals such as CETA, the TPP and the USMCA have for green procurement?

[Sarah Petrevan]

The good news is that last year Clean Energy Canada did a bunch of legal work and worked with a couple of firms to dig into these trade agreements to study more about how you and other countries have done it and how you get around it; most notably and most interestingly is probably through the United States....

Basically, to summarize.... I would be happy to have a conversation with you subsequent to this, because it's a very long-drawn-out and very detailed area of policy, but the summary is this. I think the Business Development Bank of Canada says that about 98% of Canada's economy is either a small or a medium-sized enterprise. Most trade agreements, including the ones you mentioned, have provisions in them for something called an SME set-aside, where you can direct a certain dollar portion of your procurement below x amount. Different trade agreements have different dollar amounts. Some of them are actually quite generous to focusing on SMEs within a certain jurisdiction.

You can also add other attributes to SME procurement, such as environmental objectives, and a lot of the trade agreements do recognize that there is some sort of desire to have environmental goals within them. The new U.S.-Mexico-Canada trade agreement also has a lot of provisions around this. We prepared a submission during the NAFTA negotiations to specifically provide that Canada be allowed to maintain its environmental and SME objectives in the new trade agreement. We were pleased with what we saw.

You are right that oftentimes it is assumed that trade agreements and tariffs limit what can be done in terms of low-carbon or environmental procurement, or even SME procurement, but I am pleased to say that within certain provisions and within certain allowances you can actually get around it in quite a trade compliant way. In fact, the World Trade Organization regularly gives seminars to different member countries on how to do this correctly.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

If I understand correctly, there's some work involved in that in terms of framing projects in the right light in order to get around the more general rules in the agreements.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Can you respond quickly to that?

[Sarah Petrevan]

There is some framing work. It's not extremely difficult. Many other countries, including Uruguay, have done it, so I feel like if Uruguay can do it, Canada can figure it out.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Jowhari, you have seven minutes.

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Let me start by welcoming all our witnesses, especially Madam Petrevan. I understand you're coming to us from Richmond Hill. As the member of Parliament for Richmond Hill, it's always good to see community activists and organizations from there.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Conflict....

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

There's no conflict—acknowledgement.

Let me start by asking Madam Petrevan a quick question.

A lot of countries have been mentioned, such as Finland. You just mentioned Uruguay.

As you belong to a think tank, I'm sure you've done some research into some of the best practices and some of the benchmarking as far as countries are concerned that are leading in clean tech and in greening, and coming up with policies, specifically procurement policies. Can you share with us who those countries are? Also, when we compare our greening strategy with their greening strategy, where do we stand?

[Sarah Petrevan]

Thank you for the question.

I don't actually live in Richmond Hill. It's just the closest location to where I actually live. I hail from Durham region.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

That hurts.

[A voice]

No conflict....

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

No conflict....

[Sarah Petrevan]

I mentioned in my remarks that Canada would be joining about 56 other national governments in terms of starting to look at greening government and leveraging procurement. I would say that Canada is one of the leader nations to get involved in this. That all being said, that's okay. The point is that we're actually doing it, and we are looking at policies. This is why I would always encourage us to move faster, if possible.

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Which country would be the leading country?