Government Operations Committee on Feb. 4th, 2019

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Number one, who is “they”? Number two, what did your discussions result in? Has there been any movement? Has anybody spoken to you? Have they said, “No, we're not going forward with this plan”?

[Paul Paquette]

I can only say that it's from higher powers. I'm in the union, so I get to go to LMCs all the time. It's our direct managers who have told us this, and one who is directly responsible for the ESAP program.

Initially, the talk was about 100°C or 185°F, which is lower, about 90°C. They kept on singing the same tune for 10 years. Now they're singing a different tune. We always told them that it probably wouldn't work. Even at 150°C, I'm not sure. I haven't calculated the numbers, but at 150°C we're getting closer to the target numbers, so that you would be able to transfer that amount of heat over long distances to supply buildings and to keep the buildings from freezing. Unlike steam, if you have a freeze situation, water is relentless and you'll just rip the pipes.

Let's say your fresh air coils.... All buildings require a certain amount of fresh air entering the building to keep the carbon dioxide at a safe limit—ashtray standards, we'll say. In order to achieve that, you need a certain amount of fresh air coming in. At -30C°, you need so many BTUs of heat so that coil doesn't freeze. If it's water, it could freeze. If it's steam, it goes down into a trap. The steam condenses, goes down into a trap and is evacuated.

There are a lot of issues they have to look at, but I don't know....

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

I've run out of time, haven't I?

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

You certainly have.

Now we'll go to Monsieur Deltell.

[Gérard Deltell]

Thank you so much, Mr. Chair.

I want to make a quick point about wind turbines.

My comments earlier may have implied that I was 100% against wind turbines. That's not the case at all. However, as a manager of public funds, I'm obviously very aware of public spending and value for money.

I think that any energy is good as long as it's cost-effective and useful and it serves the people that it's meant to serve. For example, Quebec has many natural resources that must be exploited. I think that the resources aren't being exploited enough, but I hope that they will be eventually. There are mines in northern Quebec, such as the Raglan Mine. This mine is powered in part by the energy produced by two wind turbines, which are supported by a diesel engine that compensates for any lack of wind. These two energies are combined.

My point is that, when the need exists, when it's feasible and when there's a way to make it cost-effective from every angle, wind energy does have its place. However, we must also think about the people who will pay. That's why the Quebec government has set aside a project that could have resulted in losses of up to $2 billion for taxpayers. That's why Quebec's auditor general said that wind energy currently isn't cost-effective in the province.

We applaud companies such as Innergex that invest their money in wind farms, as Innergex did recently with its $630 million investment.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Blaikie.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Thank you.

I want to come back briefly to the ESAP program.

When we talk about the commitment to release the business case, I imagine it includes either the environmental assessment or the emissions reduction assessment, or those are two separate documents. When they talked about releasing the business case, did you have a sense that it included the emissions calculations for the whole system, or would that be something else in addition to the business case that would have to be shared in order to get a sense of whether the pros outweigh the cons on the project?

[Alex Silas]

We are requesting that the emissions assessment and the environmental impact be included in the business proposal.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Okay.

In your presentation, I think you used the word “employer”. You said that the employer had promised the business case for the project. Who is that specifically? Is that a particular government department? Are you referring at all to the private companies that have been engaged in a kind of pre-contract period?

[Alex Silas]

No, that would be the government.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Okay. Is it the Department of Public Works that's overseeing this project? Is it the Department of the Environment? Who is it?

[Alex Silas]

It's the public works department.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Okay. Do you have any sense at all as to why the release of that has been pushed back? I know that sometimes in public-private partnerships it can be harder to get information because there are concerns about commercial interests. Has that been cited to you at all as a reason why that's not being shared?

[Alex Silas]

To my knowledge, there have been no specific reasons cited, but that could very well be it.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Okay. How important do you think it is that the public be able to access that information in order to have some sense as to whether or not this project is on track? How important is it to you to have your members be able to weigh in publicly about the veracity of the study prior to government signing off on the contract to move ahead on a project that might cost well over a billion dollars?

[Alex Silas]

It's crucially important, considering the impact that this is going to have on the public, on workers, on Canadians who live here and on visitors to our city. Our whole goal is to include our members, public servants, to come up with the best plan possible, to include the on-the-ground experts in these discussions for that reason.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

To come back to Ms. Ratansi's question, which I think was a technical question, in terms of the savings from moving from a steam system to a low-temperature hot-water system, is the idea there that because you need to heat to a lower temperature, you just don't have to burn as much natural gas? What would be the prima facie case for emissions reductions with a low temperature—

[Paul Paquette]

A hot-water system in the right conditions works really well. There are different ways. The thing about saving energy is that you'd have to attack it from all sides. If you went to heat pump chillers, let's say, we have some at Les Terrasses de la Chaudière that have operated for many years. They work great. They actually produce 60°C water, and they produce your refrigeration at the same time, so everybody wins.

We have electricity right at the gate. Hydro Ottawa just bought that dam. I mean, it's right by the plant. We can be supplied right there and have a combination of heat pump chillers and boilers. You'd still require boilers because of our extreme temperatures, to boost the temperature up in the winter months. I think it's that combination you'd have to look at, and it would give you a better, greener source of power.

Steam itself, if it's run right.... We have to remember that when we had that accident in 2009, they essentially got boilers that were out in a field. They were sitting in a farmer's field in the States and they brought them up. Can they be more efficient? Absolutely. We have no economizers on them. There are so many different parameters on that equipment that could be upgraded, which would increase our efficiencies tenfold. The free cooling is another one. Why aren't we doing that?

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

To your knowledge, have there been any detailed studies of ways to try to improve the efficiency of the existing steam system so it compares to what the new system would be?

[Paul Paquette]

Zero. I guess they were all waiting for this big saviour. The ESAP has been around for a while. They were hoping for this, and they're going to go all in. I think there's a better way to go about it, and there's definitely something that should be more researched.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

In your opinion, or as far as you know, has this project gone so far that it can't be stopped, or is there still time to put the brakes on and look for alternative solutions if the evidence warrants?

[Paul Paquette]

I would think there would always be a chance to put the brakes on. I would hope that cooler heads would prevail. Just the fact that at least 16 government buildings in the downtown core cannot convert to hot water.... They can't. There's just no way they can physically convert. They're already getting ready to start up their own boilers and go to a different system.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

So those 16 buildings would be moving to a local heating—

[Paul Paquette]

Yes, those clients are gone. They'll be gone. When this plant goes in, you're going to lose 16 customers, and that's just off that line. That's 16 buildings.