Evidence of meeting #26 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was service.
A video is available from Parliament.
7 p.m.
NDP
Erin Weir NDP Regina—Lewvan, SK
Right. I take your point.
Your task force seems very keen on the idea of more franchising. I wonder if you might be able to speak about some of the potential disadvantages or pitfalls of franchising.
7:05 p.m.
President, Task Force on Canada Post Corporation
The advantages are clear. Because of the rural moratorium that describes some localities and communities that are no longer rural, we say it's probably time to redefine. We were told by Canadians that they liked the idea of franchises because they have longer hours.
7:05 p.m.
NDP
Erin Weir NDP Regina—Lewvan, SK
Sorry, but given limited time, what I was asking was for you to identify some of the disadvantages. I think the report is fairly extensive on the advantages.
7:05 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski
Mr. Weir, you will have one more three-minute intervention, and perhaps you can bring the disadvantages up at that time.
We move on now to Mr. Whalen for seven minutes.
7:05 p.m.
Liberal
Nick Whalen Liberal St. John's East, NL
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
I would like to thank everyone for their excellent work. I would simply say that I agree with Mr. Blaney as to the financial rigour of this report. I also agree with what Ms. Trudel said about being a bit disappointed that the task force did not have a broader mandate.
As a task force, what was the most limiting part about the terms of reference that were presented to you?
7:05 p.m.
President, Task Force on Canada Post Corporation
That's an interesting question.
I guess it was the four months. We would have liked to enjoy the summer. We worked very hard to be able to produce a discussion paper of quality to bring to your attention. Other than that, we felt we had everything we needed in order to poll Canadians, meet the stakeholders, and subcontract the expertise of EY and Oliver Wyman so that they could come to the table.
The four of us, as I said in the preamble, have different experience. We come from different provinces. We are all over 60—very young still, but with lots of experience. We felt that we were independent enough to do what ought to be done, given that we were looking to find ways for an important institution to be sustainable—not only financially sustainable, but sustainable.
7:05 p.m.
Liberal
Nick Whalen Liberal St. John's East, NL
Okay. Sustainability was the focus and the goal. I look at that, perhaps, as also the restraint.
When you look at the nature of Canada Post over many decades and not just back to 1981, you see that it provided a service to Canadians. It was part of a nation-building exercise. It brought the world to Canadians who live in all corners of the country.
The world no longer comes to Canadians by mail, but it comes in many ways that don't make it to all the corners of our country. Certainly in rural parts of my riding, access to Internet and access to banking are limited. When people move out of rural towns, it's because the services they need to engage in the modern world simply aren't there. Isn't that possibly part of Canada Post's role?
You say you weren't constrained, but if you focused purely on the financial sustainability, maybe that was what constrained you, because if you had looked at the role of Canada Post in bringing the world to all corners of Canada, you would not be able to ignore the fact that it might actually, in today's day and age, cost some more money, and that maybe a subsidy for rural service might be something that needs to be canvassed.
What did you find from your survey of Canadians about their appetite for a subsidy for the service?
7:05 p.m.
President, Task Force on Canada Post Corporation
It wasn't in the mandate at all. It was with no subsidy. It was to be self-sustainable.
7:05 p.m.
President, Task Force on Canada Post Corporation
It's interesting, because at the same time, when we described the hub situation, what we had in mind was to bring to the community, where it's really needed, the kind of services beyond what is already Canada Post—not necessarily through workers of Canada Post, but to offer the facilities of Canada Post post offices. In the cities it hasn't—
7:05 p.m.
Liberal
Nick Whalen Liberal St. John's East, NL
Thank you. With seven minutes, I want to get on to the next point, so “yes” is fine.
Were there any other aspects of the service charter, beyond daily delivery and the proximity of the service, that you felt should be re-examined, or is that really the primary one of the two?
7:05 p.m.
President, Task Force on Canada Post Corporation
There was the length of time it takes for delivery to reach both the city and the rural areas. Many Canadians told us they could live with a birthday card taking longer to reach them, except that when they're waiting for a cheque, they want it as soon as possible. Then you send it by Internet.
7:10 p.m.
Liberal
Nick Whalen Liberal St. John's East, NL
Okay, perfect, and you mentioned parcel delivery as well.
When we talk about labour costs, are you including management-side labour costs in those numbers as well? Just give a yes or no on that, because I want to follow up.
7:10 p.m.
Member, Task Force on Canada Post Corporation
Okay.
No. We talk about the employee as a fixed cost.
7:10 p.m.
Liberal
Nick Whalen Liberal St. John's East, NL
Okay, perfect. Thank you.
What are the management-side labour costs of Canada Post, then? Just give the number, please. How many billions, or how many hundreds of millions?
7:10 p.m.
Liberal
Nick Whalen Liberal St. John's East, NL
I had a difficult time finding it, which is why I'm asking the question.
7:10 p.m.
President, Task Force on Canada Post Corporation
We'll get back to you with an answer.
7:10 p.m.
Liberal
Nick Whalen Liberal St. John's East, NL
In your discussion of reorganization and governance changes within Canada Post, how much do you think the corporation might be able to save by reducing the 5% of employees who are management? This isn't supervised managers, either; this is executive-level managers. It's 5%. It seems quite high.
7:10 p.m.
President, Task Force on Canada Post Corporation
We didn't look specifically at whether it could be reorganized. We didn't compare with other organizations, so we cannot—
7:10 p.m.
Liberal
Nick Whalen Liberal St. John's East, NL
A lot of work was done on reducing unionized labour costs. A lot of effort was put into that, and many recommendations. Where are the recommendations around reducing the cost of management-side labour?
7:10 p.m.
President, Task Force on Canada Post Corporation
From what we've studied already, action has been taken in reducing some of the numbers, and also some of the benefits. For example, many have switched to contributions rather than a defined benefit pension plan.
Already some changes have occurred. Can more occur? Probably, but—
7:10 p.m.
Liberal
Nick Whalen Liberal St. John's East, NL
Okay.
We talk about reducing the size of the workforce in Canada Post, but many millennials look at their retiring grandparents and see jobs at organizations like Canada Post as a source of good long-term, middle-class jobs. Eliminating those jobs from the workforce is certainly quite depressing for a new generation of people who have looked to those organizations as possible sources of employment.
When our committee with a broader mandate looks at this, not restrained by maybe some of the questions you had focused on, what would you recommend that we could look at that you felt that you were unable to look at? I ask because our committee is not constrained by the mandate that you were presented with.
7:10 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski
Please answer quickly, if possible. If not, we'll move on and try to get an answer a little later.
7:10 p.m.
President, Task Force on Canada Post Corporation
In the realignment, we think attrition is a crossroad moment for Canada Post to make sure that the jobs that are there will be there for the long term. These jobs probably ought to be with added value. Maybe they are jobs with much more of the logistics that the vice-chair was talking about earlier on.
It's not a matter of no more jobs. We went from 60,000 to 50,000; maybe at some point we'll have a third less. The value of those jobs, in terms of the task itself and what it will require, will require more training and better value. This is like any organization. It has happened in banks and it has happened in government. It's happening everywhere.