Evidence of meeting #27 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was mail.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Deepak Chopra  President and Chief Executive Officer, Canada Post Corporation
Wayne Cheeseman  Chief Financial Officer, Canada Post Corporation
Susan Margles  Vice-President, Government Relations and Policy Framework, Canada Post Corporation
Brenda McAuley  National President, Canadian Postmasters and Assistants Association
François Paradis  National President, Union of Postal Communications Employees
Guy Dubois  National President , Association of Postal Officials of Canada
Mike Palecek  National President, Canadian Union of Postal Workers
Jan Simpson  First National Vice-President, Canadian Union of Postal Workers
Howie West  Work Reorganization Officer, Programs Branch, Public Service Alliance of Canada

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

Colleagues, ladies and gentlemen, welcome to meeting 27 of the Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates as we continue our study of Canada Post.

I have a couple of quick housekeeping points first. As all of you know, we were originally scheduled to meet today from 3:30 to 6:30, but because of votes that were unanticipated at the time this meeting was called, votes will be held at 6 p.m. The bells will start ringing at 5:30. Now, normally it is the practice of all committees to adjourn their committee proceedings immediately upon bells. However, since we have a number of organizations who were scheduled to be here for two hours, we'd be shortchanging them by approximately an hour.

I will take the advice of the committee. Since we're only a few steps down from the House of Commons, would the committee agree to wait until 5:45 p.m. to adjourn? I know it's only an extra 15 minutes, but at least it gives our colleagues, who have been here to present in anticipation of a two-hour session, an extra 15 minutes.

Do I have the concurrence of the committee to allow us to adjourn at 5:45 instead of 5:30?

3:30 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

Thank you very much.

With that, we'll commence immediately with our first set of witnesses.

Mr. Chopra, thank you for being here. We'll get this proceeding started as quickly as possible. I understand you have a brief opening statement, and then we'll go directly into questions and answers.

Mr. Chopra, over to you, please.

3:30 p.m.

Deepak Chopra President and Chief Executive Officer, Canada Post Corporation

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank the members of the committee for inviting us today. I have with me our chief financial officer, Mr. Wayne Cheeseman, and Madam Susan Margles, our vice-president of government relations and policy.

I have a few remarks, and then we'll open it up for questions.

I want to thank the independent task force for its thoughtful report. The members of the task force clearly understand the significance of this national institution. They based their analysis and options on a solid understanding of the size, scope, and complexities of the postal system and its importance to Canadians. They have provided Canadians and this committee with a report that is comprehensive, well researched, and thoughtful. It is a frank report in its assessment and bold in its analysis. The task force has also provided us with indisputable facts upon which any discussion on the future of the postal system should be based.

First, the report has left no doubt that there is an urgent need to transform the business. With every passing year, there is less mail to deliver and more addresses for us to deliver to. Second, Canadians like their postal service and they want it to remain strong, but not subsidized with their tax dollars. Third, parcels are the future of the company because that's the service that Canadians want and need. Mail will always be important to Canadians, but they are using Canada Post more to deliver the items they buy online. We're growing our parcel business because we're not only delivering more and more products from Canadian and global companies, we are also opening global markets for Canadian businesses. The benefits go far beyond Canada Post.

Fourth, there are no easy solutions. The good news is that Canadians clearly understand that. They understand that the postal system needs to change, and they aren't afraid of what's required to do it. They know that mail isn't coming back, but they don't want the postal system to disappear. In fact, they want to know that this important institution is secure for generations to come.

That makes the work of this committee incredibly important, not just to the future of the postal system, but for the Canadian economy. As chief executive officer of Canada Post, I understand the tremendous responsibility that has been placed on this committee, on the government, as well as on all of us charged with leading this organization. We must get this right. This is about much more than mail and parcels, or even a nostalgic attachment to a 250-year-old institution. It's about people's livelihoods and their dependence on a strong and vibrant national postal system.

There are 50,000 people who work at Canada Post, with families, mortgages, and commitments, who depend on the company they helped to build. They want to see Canada Post evolve and grow as well. On a larger scale are the countless Canadians whose livelihoods depend on a strong and reliable postal system. Canadian small businesses still regularly use the mail to conduct their operations: cheques, invoices, statements, and special customer offers. They send and receive these envelopes every day.

Our direct mail business is also incredibly important to Canadians, which is why it still generates $1.2 billion in revenues. It helps small businesses reach their customers in their local neighbourhoods. Direct mail is used extensively and successfully by charities to raise much-needed funds. It is also widely used at all levels of government to communicate information to their citizens. In our parcel business, the dependence on a postal system is becoming even stronger. Our parcel volumes are growing because the Canadian retail industry is going through a huge, disruptive change as Canadians do more and more of their shopping online.

The Canadian retail industry is a significant contributor to the Canadian economy. According to the Retail Council of Canada, total Canadian retail sales in 2015 were roughly $516 billion.

We're doing everything we can to help Canadian retailers, large and small, in our biggest cities and in our smallest communities, including the north, to evolve, prosper, and grow, but they need a strong and vibrant postal system to do it.

We deliver two out of three parcels that Canadians order online. We are deeply embedded in the new Canadian retail economy.

We work closely with Canadians who have risked it all to start a small business, often out of their garage. Their investors are their friends and relatives, who pitch in because they believe so strongly in what they're doing. We do more than deliver the parcels they pack themselves. We help them to innovate and grow. After all, the more successful they are, the more successful we are.

As they grow, we help them transition beyond the start-up phase so they can focus on hiring more people and expanding. We have helped some owner-operator small start-ups become multi-million dollar enterprises with large staffs and strong futures.

As well, you can name virtually any large retailer in Canada, and chances are we're working with them to help them adapt to the changing face of retail. Many Canadians depend on these large retail companies making a successful transition into e-commerce.

I know first-hand that change isn't easy, but the task force has reaffirmed the path that we were taking was moving us in the right direction. They have also detailed the challenges that are driving the need for change at Canada Post.

Over the past decade, mail volumes have declined by 32%, or 1.6 billion pieces. That's almost a billion dollars in revenues. This is a trend that will continue. We must embrace change and keep going.

The report clearly shows that Canadians support making the changes necessary to secure the future of postal service. They also expect the postal service to evolve, learn, adapt, and improve, not just in the way we serve them, but in the way we implement change. At Canada Post, that is also what we expect of ourselves.

Much has been said about the changes we were making to secure the future of the postal service over the last three years. Less well known is how we were able to learn, adapt, and improve our approach and processes as we progressed. That's why we are pleased to see customer satisfaction numbers in the task force report remaining as high as 91%. The focus on constant improvement will continue at Canada Post.

I would like to conclude by saying to all of the committee members that our challenges are large. The solutions to them must match the enormity of the challenges. There are some people who will tell you that the postal system should never change and should remain in the good old days. That is not an option. There is simply too much at stake.

I would encourage you to move forward knowing what the task force found, which is that many Canadians are counting on all of us to get this right and secure a strong future for Canada's postal system.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

Thank you, Mr. Chopra.

Before we begin, colleagues, as we go into our regular rounds of questions, I would encourage all of you to try to keep your questions and answers as succinct as possible. I will be very strict today to make sure that the seven-minute and five-minute deadlines are adhered to.

I would also like to conclude this session at approximately 4:25, about five minutes early. It always takes a couple of minutes to transition from one group of witnesses to another. Since we're unfortunately going to be giving less time to the organizations that are here at 4:30, I'd like to get them to the table as quickly as possible. I hope I have your agreement on that.

We will start now with the seven-minute round of questions. The first intervenor is Ms. Ratansi.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Yasmin Ratansi Liberal Don Valley East, ON

Thanks to all of you for being here.

Thank you, Mr. Chopra, for your opening remarks.

We all want Canada Post to succeed. We know that change is necessary and that change is a challenge. In talking to one of the task force members, he indicated to us that change was not brought about properly—this is for the record only—and therefore change needs inclusion. Hopefully, going forward, Canada Post, whatever it takes as a change management tool, will be more inclusive and more open and transparent.

My question is, do you see Canada Post as a business or a service, or a combination of both? Not a long answer, please, but a very short answer.

3:40 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canada Post Corporation

Deepak Chopra

Canada Post has always been both. It has components of its business that compete vigorously in the marketplace, such as our parcels business or our marketing mail business, and it has the traditional exclusive privilege of delivering mail, which unfortunately is less and less in our system.

We have always tried to strike this delicate balance between making sure that we can be financially self-sustaining and still meet the dual role of a business as well as a service that Canadians need and cherish.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Yasmin Ratansi Liberal Don Valley East, ON

Fair enough.

Before this process began—and we are going to be on the hustings starting Monday—you had created your five-point plan. I asked the task force yesterday, and they said that the five-point plan is a first step, but it is not totally comprehensive, and it's not all-inclusive, and it has a lot of things to do. They say that “even with an optimal implementation of the foregoing options, Canada Post will not be positioned to operate in the future on a financially self-sustaining basis over the long term”.

How do we then move forward? Have you, as the CEO, and your team of managers thought of strategic directions that you might wish to share with us?

3:45 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canada Post Corporation

Deepak Chopra

Much of that discussion we shared with the task force. Their report has very thoughtfully articulated the summarization of the complexity of the business challenges we face and some of the options they have laid out in the discussion paper.

The challenges, as I mentioned in my opening remarks, are really large. The one thing we all agree on is that doing nothing is not an option. If the goal is to address long-term sustainability challenges, then the medium-term challenges have to be addressed first.

I think the spirit of the report, as we see it, is grounded in the fact that some of the changes have to be done immediately, so that down the road, if those prove to be insufficient, more thoughtful ideas can be explored.

We believe Canada Post needs to address some of its structural challenges. We have been delivering mail for 250 years, and the last 40 years particularly—

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Yasmin Ratansi Liberal Don Valley East, ON

I'm sorry to stop you, but what sorts of structural changes are you talking about?

3:45 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canada Post Corporation

Deepak Chopra

We have been at it for quite some time.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Yasmin Ratansi Liberal Don Valley East, ON

Yes.

3:45 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canada Post Corporation

Deepak Chopra

Over the last five years Canada Post has embarked on lots of changes. The spirit of those changes is twofold. Almost half of our focus is on growing revenues.

For example, our parcel business has grown over the last five years by over $400 million. As I mentioned, with 1.6 billion mail pieces disappearing over the last decade, on average that accounts for a billion dollars of revenue lost. Half of that we have been able to recover through growing our parcel business. The other half we have been able to do through some of the transformation work that we undertook over the last five years. That also accounts for roughly $400 million.

We have managed to balance those competing needs so far, but given that the committee now has the task of looking at the options, talking to Canadians, we really look forward to your recommendations and the decision on the next phase of Canada Post's mandate. As you rightly asked, is it a business? Is it a public service? Should it be financially self-sustaining? All of those questions are rightly being discussed and debated in the right forum.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Yasmin Ratansi Liberal Don Valley East, ON

Okay. We are a committee, you are the CEO, and we can work together, but I think we're looking to you, as CEO and management, to at least give us some strategic ideas. Of the six options that the task force proposed for, I'm sure you know, mitigating the losses, which would be the easiest or the fastest to implement?

3:45 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canada Post Corporation

Deepak Chopra

I think at this stage our view is that with all of these options, for us to be able to look at one option or two options in isolation is not the right way to approach it. I think a package that balances the financial self-sustainability goal.... Once the committee has had a chance to recommend that, then we can give you our assessment on the ease or difficulty of implementation. I think it would be premature for us to assess the outcome of the committee's preferences.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Yasmin Ratansi Liberal Don Valley East, ON

The committee is going because of what happened, with people perceiving that there was no consultation, and that they were suddenly told that their mail was not going to be delivered. Whether true or false, that's not our reality, but I think it is important for us to understand that there's the CEO of this large crown corporation, and the buck stops there. We need to know how you will help us understand. You are there. Day-to-day is your operation; ours is basically consultation. We will get the input, but we also need to know that you have some strategic plan in place, or a strategy that you'd think through, because you earn the big bucks.

3:50 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canada Post Corporation

Deepak Chopra

We believe that Canada Post—

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

Mr. Chopra, please be brief.

3:50 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canada Post Corporation

Deepak Chopra

—has to do a two-pronged approach: grow its business, as we are growing in our parcels and logistics; and address the structural misalignment of the costs that were built for a different generation. It's a combination.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

Thank you, sir.

Next up we have Mr. Blaney for seven minutes, please.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Steven Blaney Conservative Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC

Mr. Chopra, we saw the Liberal government interfere with the operations of an independent crown corporation when they shamefully sent a public letter demanding your resignation. We saw them suspend the five-point plan without first consulting your corporation, Canada Post, about the implications. Now, today, they ask what we should do. In fact Minister Judy Foote stated she didn't even know what was in the five-point plan outside of community mailboxes.

Well, the five-point plan is the first major step Canada Post has undertaken to face this huge challenge you are facing, which is basically, I would argue, bankruptcy.

My question for you this afternoon is this: what is this interference, the suspension of the five-point plan, costing Canadian taxpayers?

3:50 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canada Post Corporation

Deepak Chopra

With regard to the reviews of Canada Post, its mandate has been reviewed almost every five, ten years. We see this as a process that from time to time governments undertake to make sure that the mandate for the corporation is aligned with the changing needs of Canadians. So for us this is a healthy process where we need to understand how and when we can execute our priorities, our set of options. This is a process on which we need to get clarity in order for us to carry on with our business.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Steven Blaney Conservative Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chopra. My question is fairly simple: how much have we saved so far, and how much are we leaving on the table? How much is the abandoning of the five-point plan costing? Could you share this information with us?

3:50 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canada Post Corporation

Deepak Chopra

Our five-point plan was designed to save between $700 million and $900 million. At the time of its suspension, we were halfway into this plan. We had saved almost $400 million, and the rest of the savings are now on hold pending this conversation.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Steven Blaney Conservative Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC

Okay: so I understand that it's half a billion dollars that the suspension of the five-point plan is costing Canadian taxpayers. But this, I would say, is just la pointe de l'iceberg. We had yesterday a very good report that was produced by the task force charged with finding a solution. One thing I found really insightful in the conversation we had yesterday was that Canada Post is not a one-size-fits-all operation. It has many different clients in many parts of the country. What is interesting is that these people are happy even though the service is not provided in the same way. That's constructive.

We know there is less mail and revenues are going down. We saw that parcels were the good news, but what we hear is that people want parcels every day, while they'd be ready to receive mail not every day. We know that in the parcel sector there are competitors. So how do you...why have you taken this challenge, Mr. Chopra, to do your best for Canadian taxpayers by embarking on this journey with Canada Post? How can you reconcile the fact that parcels, which are generating revenue, and have to be delivered on a daily basis, which is costly—your costs are higher than the private sector—and still you have this protocol?