Government Operations Committee on Oct. 3rd, 2016

[Charles Pender]

You have really hit on it. What would work in Montreal or Calgary would not work here, clearly. If there is some way of finding local solutions for local populations, it would be much easier for people to accept them, and would facilitate the evolution of Canada Post in our region.

No one has ever suggested that possibility before. Instead, we were told “This is what we are going to do, and that's that”. Canada Post forces people to adapt against their will, rather than listening to the population and adapting solutions.

Of course, we pay taxes for services that do not always generate revenue. As mayor, I can tell you that when we offer services, be it snow removal or public transit, it costs money. Those services do not generate any revenue to cover these costs. The same thing applies to Canada Post.

[Ramez Ayoub, Liberal, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Yes, I agree, there is the service aspect.

Would the fact of being part of the solution and of looking for the best solutions under the circumstances lead you to consider that the promise, the one that seems to have become an obsession for my neighbour across the way, of returning to quality service would in the end be kept? The ultimate objective is to provide quality, reliable service, to have Canada Post continue to provide quality service. Could part of the answer be to seek solutions jointly with Canada Post? Is this a possibility that might suit you?

[Charles Pender]

In my opinion, we have to first determine the level of service and quality that citizens expect, and then look for solutions. But if you don't have the level of service to begin with, or aren't promised quality service, it will be difficult to find solutions that will help people.

[Ramez Ayoub, Liberal, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

I agree. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

We are now going to our final two interventions. Our first will be a new committee member.

Welcome, Mr. Kmiec. You have five minutes, please.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, gentlemen, for coming in today.

I was reviewing the committee transcript in getting ready for this, and I want to pick up on the consultation component to begin with.

I have a public document that shows Canada Post did in fact consult. It was a consultation in September 2013. There were 46 communities. They had 30,006 online comments, 868 letters.

Your Worship, I just heard you say that big city mayors and mayors in sort of urban regions were refusing to consult and interact with Canada Post on this transition to CMBs. Can you talk a little more about that? If Canada Post is trying to consult or get input, especially with big city mayors, and they're refusing, wouldn't that make it more difficult to figure out local community need?

[Charles Pender]

Well, I'll just speak for myself.

From a City of Corner Brook point of view, we had a clear indication from the community that they did not want to travel this path, that they felt the consultations came after the decisions had been made, that there was little effort to consult with the general population.

That was translated, I guess, into a commentary to us as a council, who felt that we should not be involved in moving this process forward. As a mayor who is duly elected by the residents of this community, I have to respond to those comments and that input.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

To pick up on something Mr. Whalen said about the financial sustainability of Canada Post in the long term, we all know that Canada Post is not financially sustainable. Basically, an option or several options have to be taken to reduce costs or to get into new lines of business.

I want to pick up on postal banking, because you mentioned there may be that possibility. I know the New Democrats are big on this, and they use Europe as an example. However, every single post office in the European Union, by a directive of the European Union, is being privatized or has been privatized at this point.

Would privatization then be the option?

[Charles Pender]

I wouldn't be able to answer that question because I'm not familiar enough with it, other than the fact that I use it when I'm there.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

Another thing is that, in Alberta, credit unions are really popular. Credit unions are in every single small town. I used to live in small-town Alberta. They're very, very popular.

Instead of Canada Post getting into the business of banking, would offering the option of kiosks at credit unions or banks be an acceptable secondary one, if it made money? I mean, the leasing space....

Setting up a postal banking system is not just about having a trained agent. I used to work in HR, so it's training and getting your people up to speed on what you're doing. It's certification, licensing. You need SAP banking software. You need compliance certification. You need cash and cheque reconciliation. It's a lot of work.

Instead of getting into the business of it, would kiosks satisfy a small town like Corner Brook?

[Charles Pender]

I would say that postal banking probably wouldn't be viable in Corner Brook because we have all of the major banks here. However, if you look at smaller areas, maybe in St. Anthony or Port aux Basques, or other areas, Burgeo, Baie Verte, that are large but not as large as Corner Brook, the offering of some sort of kiosk service, whether it's in combination with a bank.... It could be as simple as leasing space in the existing postal office to a banking organization, or some sort of combination.

There are opportunities, and not just with the postal service. It could be any other service that the federal government could offer, using available space that already exists.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

That concept of a one-stop shop for federal, and maybe also provincial or even municipal services is something that has been done in Alberta, although we have partially independent registry offices for our driver's licences and hunting and fishing licences.

They could all be consolidated into one spot where people could go in order to pick up their mail and maybe buy their hunting licences. Maybe there could be a pharmacy there as well. Would that be an option?

[Charles Pender]

In my opinion, anytime you combine services and work with other orders of government, it makes sense. However, you also have to have the assurance that those levels of government are not going to bail on you three years later or five years later.

We have combined services in Newfoundland and Labrador in various areas. It's not a far stretch to see the post office combined with other government services in any order of government, whether municipal or provincial, in these smaller communities. Whenever you can rationalize services, then it makes sense to do so if you cut the costs and still provide the same service at the same level of quality.

[Terry Gardner]

If I could just add one little word to what the mayor was saying, what you're speaking of also creates community because it creates a central point in the community, as was the post office before it moved and the business went away with it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Thank you very much.

Our final intervention this morning will be from Madam Ratansi, for five minutes please.

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Thank you both for coming and thank you for your presentations. They have been an eye-opener.

As has been mentioned, this is our second week. Prior to this, we consulted with Canada Post and we consulted with the task force. As a clarification, I think the promise or our policy on Canada Post was that we would put a moratorium on the stoppage of the door-to-door delivery because we understood from the people that there was no consultation.

Canada Post tells us that they did many consultations and so on, but according to you, Mayor, it was a fait accompli because there was a consultation while telling you exactly where they were going to put the mailbox, correct?

[Charles Pender]

They did not say exactly where they were going to put it, but that they were going to move forward.

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

They were going to move forward.

Did they consult you as to where they were going to put it?

[Charles Pender]

I don't think we got to that point because once the election campaign started, everything stopped.

I think they had looked at two locations to test over the winter, and it never got done.

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

In terms of the disability community, Mr. Gardner, were you ever consulted?

[Terry Gardner]

No.

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

You do not remember being consulted.

[Terry Gardner]

No, not once.

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

That's where we have a situation where we are out there consulting people because we have to, and we have to find a solution. We're listening to labour. We're listening to businesses. We're listening to everybody, people with disabilities, rural communities. Everybody has a different need. We have to combine those needs and acknowledge that financial sustainability is what Canada Post presented. The task force was limited to that concept. Then we heard from labour that the labour costs, which I guess are 70% of Canada Post's costs in their profit and loss statement, are the biggest problem. I wish labour were here so I could talk to them, but they're not.

The issue we're talking about here is thinking outside the box and being creative. You said you haven't been consulted, so how would you be creative if you leave out financial sustainability? Labour has told us that there have been crises created, warehouses created. You explained that your mail goes to St. John's to come back to Corner Brook. That's totally ineffective and inefficient, and then you have to pay labour to get it. They cut down on the motorized vehicles that were delivering.

In a small municipality, how would you manage things? What would you do? What solutions would you find?

[Charles Pender]

That's a very good question. As mayor of a small community, I can tell you that most of our costs are labour costs. You have to pay people to do the job, deliver services. That's the reality. Is it a reality that Canada Post can be financially viable with no debt or deficit, or should they be funded by the federal government's tax dollars, and what is the right level of subsidization? What we do in this building is public transit. We subsidize it because we know it's a service that's required, but we'll never recover the cost of offering those services. That's just one issue. What you would do to cut those costs is a measurement and labour issue, and how you reduce it, I couldn't tell you.