Government Operations Committee on Oct. 4th, 2016

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Yes.

[Adrian White]

That's a....

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Please give a very short answer, which may be difficult with a question like that.

[Adrian White]

Well, if you—

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

A creative answer.

[Adrian White]

A creative answer is that the cost of doing business in this country has to be the same as doing business globally in other countries. I completely understand the concerns my colleagues have brought forward about having a decent standard of living, a pension plan, and benefits. The fact is, though, that you're competing with parts of the world that don't provide that to the workforce, yet you're expected to be as cost-effective as they are. That's a difficult thing to achieve in this country.

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

That part of the conversation we'll have to have later.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Thank you very much. I appreciate that.

Ladies and gentlemen, that will bring this session to an end.

I want to make one comment, though, to both Mr. MacDonald and Ms. MacEachern. I've been struck over the last few weeks, as we've been conducting these consultations across Canada, that every CUPW presenter who has come to us has been a very long-term employee. I have a brother-in-law who is a letter carrier in Regina. He's been employed by Canada Post for well over 25 years. To me, it really speaks to the loyalty the workers have to the corporation, regardless of the disputes you may have from time to time or on an ongoing basis.

What I would ask you to do, if you could, is talk to your national president, Mr. Palecek. I'd be curious to know the average length of time your employees have served. What is the length of service? I would suspect that it's probably longer than at most corporations in Canada.

[Gordon MacDonald]

The average in Sydney is probably 35 years.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

That's amazing.

[Kristen MacEachern]

I believe that across Canada they figured it out to be about 27 years.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Thank you very much. That's very helpful.

Ladies and gentlemen, thank you again for being here. Thank you for your perspectives and for your suggestions and recommendations. Should you, however, have additional information you think would benefit our committee members in our deliberations, I would ask you to contact our clerk directly and provide that information to us, and that will be included in our final report.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Ladies and gentlemen, colleagues, we're back.

Welcome, gentlemen. I suspect you were here for a good portion of the last session, so you probably know how this works, but just to reiterate very quickly, I'll ask each of you to make a short five-minute opening statement. Following that, we will have a series of questions from our committee members. At the end of that session, we will be asking you, should you have additional information to present to our committee members, to please get that directly to our clerk.

I have Mr. Cormier first on my speakers list.

Mr. Cormier, the floor is yours for five minutes.

[Lowell Cormier, Municipal Councillor, District 11, Cape Breton Regional Municipality]

Thank you very much.

Good evening, everyone. It's a pleasure for me to be present this evening to address the committee regarding Canada Post door-to-door service.

I'm a councillor for District 11 in Cape Breton Regional Municipality. My district includes the former town of New Waterford and surrounding areas of Lingan, New Victoria, Scotchtown, and River Ryan.

On March 18, 2014, CBRM council is on record, through a motion of council, as supporting the maintenance of door-to-door service in Canada. I supported this motion at the time and have become more hardened in my support since that time.

As some of you may be aware, there's a municipal election happening in CBRM. I'm busy knocking on doors, and I can't help but notice the high number of senior citizens and residents with disabilities. I'm going to be repetitive in my presentation, realizing that you will have heard the very same arguments many times during your deliberations. These scenarios would probably be the same whether they take place in Burnaby, B.C., Etobicoke, Ontario, St. John's, Newfoundland, or New Waterford, Cape Breton, Nova Scotia.

Removing door-to-door delivery will pose a great hardship to the residents of my district. The distance to the proposed community mailboxes will be particularly burdensome to our aging demographic, who are struggling as it is to remain in their own homes. Residents with mobility issues will become more dependent on others to get their mail, and often that support is not available to them. Our harsh winters make footing dangerous, and problems with lighting and snow removal will create further hardship for our residents. Over the past four years, I've received numerous calls for snow removal and lighting around existing community mailboxes in the suburban areas of our district.

As most of you would be aware, the unemployment rate in the Cape Breton Regional Municipality is in the high teens, well above the national average. It's a very disturbing issue, to say the least. Losing well-paying postal jobs will only increase those numbers.

Our door-to-door letter carriers do a fantastic job in all kinds of trying weather. They're also a great safeguard or security blanket to many of our residents who are living alone and who rarely have regular visitors. Cape Bretoners care for one another, none more so than our letter carriers.

In closing, I want to thank you for listening to me and taking the time to go across the country getting feedback from Canadians of all walks of life. Door-to-door delivery is part of the fabric that makes Canada the country that it is. Please don't alter this wonderful and necessary service. Our citizens are counting on you.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Thank you very much, Mr. Cormier.

Mr. Clarke, go ahead for five minutes, please.

[Cecil Clarke, President, Union of Nova Scotia Municipalities]

Thank you.

Good evening. I'm here in my capacity as president of the Union of Nova Scotia Municipalities, but I also serve as mayor of the Cape Breton Regional Municipality, so I want to welcome all members of the standing committee and staff and those who have come to present to this deliberation. On behalf of the Union of Nova Scotia Municipalities, I want to thank the standing committee for giving me the opportunity to speak with you today on important issues concerning Canada Post.

I would note that all 50 municipalities within the province of Nova Scotia are members of the Union of Nova Scotia Municipalities. In Nova Scotia, municipalities recognize the importance of maintaining a strong national postal service in both our urban and our rural communities. At the same time, given the decline in mail delivery, we recognize the status quo is no longer an option. That said, the UNSM favours an alternate-day delivery approach as a cost-saving measure, rather than continuing with the expansion of the community mailbox system.

The UNSM supports the view that rural postal service is an integral part of Canada's mail service. To this end, in 2012 the organization passed a resolution requesting that Canada Post halt the the further erosion of rural mail delivery. Similar to the position of the Federation of Canadian Municipalities, the UNSM is encouraging the federal government to continue to enforce the moratorium on rural post office closures and to maintain service standards for both postal delivery and post office accessibility.

Here in Nova Scotia we're hearing from seniors who have to drive 20 kilometres one way to pick up their mail at a community mailbox. This location is simply too far from houses and businesses. A number of safety issues associated with the location of the community mailboxes have also come to our attention. These include poor lighting conditions, lack of snow clearing and litter pickup, and lack of space for a vehicle to pull over to the side of the road for entry and exit purposes.

In some cases, Canada Post ignored municipal rights of way when locating the community mailboxes, even after municipalities consulted with the corporation.

Maintenance concerns have also been raised, in particular the freezing of mailboxes in either a closed position, where mail is difficult to access, or in an open position where mail is exposed to potential theft.

While Canada Post has indicated its commitment to meaningful consultation with municipalities, the consultation among various municipalities in Nova Scotia is inconsistent. Because not all municipalities are the same, different levels and types of consultation may be required. For example, land use planning practices may be more stringent in some municipalities when compared to others.

Where community mailboxes are already in place, or if new ones are created, the cost to maintain them should be borne by Canada Post, or alternatively, Canada Post should adequately compensate municipalities to provide that service.

Consultation does not imply a meeting in which Canada Post hears municipal concerns but does not take the appropriate steps to respond. Municipalities are the order of government closest to the people. We are in constant touch with the residents in our communities. It is in Canada Post's best interest to properly consult with us so that we can outline relevant municipal bylaws and policies and residents' concerns.

I did want to inform the standing committee that Canada Post is providing a new service to municipalities in Nova Scotia, an e-billing project with the Property Valuation Services Corporation. UNSM congratulates the organization on its commitment to providing good value and support for this project.

To reiterate, municipalities in Nova Scotia consider mail delivery an essential service in our urban and rural communities. Given Canada Post's declining revenues, the UNSM supports switching to an alternate-day delivery model rather than the creation of more community mailboxes.

Again, thank you for giving me the opportunity to speak today, and I reiterate the welcome to this beautiful island.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Thank you very much.

I know I can speak on behalf of our entire committee when I say that it truly is a beautiful part of the world, and we very much appreciate your kind wishes.

Our first intervenor, for seven minutes, will be Mr. Whalen.

[Nick Whalen, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. Thank you both for coming to present to the committee tonight. It is wonderful to hear from municipal leaders, especially someone like Mr. Clarke, who has represented a broad variety of municipalities across all the members of the union of municipalities of Nova Scotia.

We're looking at the future of Canada Post and its need to change over time due to an average decline in Lettermail volumes of 5% or 6% every year over the last five years at least. As we try to deal with this the decline in usage of that service and the decline in revenues, we have to come up with creative solutions to manage that change appropriately.

A question that we've been asking most of the people who come before the committee is this: among the various changes that are proposed to address the financial gap between what the corporation requires and what it receives from services, would either of you or the groups you represent support some type of direct government subsidy for Canada Post if it's unable to achieve its break-even point or unable to earn a profit in any given year?

[Lowell Cormier]

Yes. I'm a municipal councillor, and I represent about 10,000 people. I would think they would go along with a government subsidy if they were able to save their door-to-door delivery. I know that Cecil, on behalf of UNSM, has talked about alternate days of delivery. I'm not sure if people want that, but if that's what it has to be in order to be viable, then I guess we could be going there. I think that if our residents lose door-to-door delivery, it will be tragic, because a lot of them don't even have cars. A lot of them don't have a visitor who comes to see them regularly, and they rely on the mailman to get their mail and also to check on them every now and then. If a subsidy was in order and was necessary because the corporation couldn't become viable, then I would support that. I also think most of our residents also would, because it's a service that is crucial and it's part of our fabric, as I alluded to before.

[Cecil Clarke]

I would like to add to that.

When you look at what governments do, you see that we're here to facilitate and provide public service. Getting the people to and from places is what we do in transportation, and governments have to be there to invest in that process to move things. If it's a highway, then we have investments we make for the public good. When it comes to the mail service, is it in the public good? The question needs to be reversed sometimes. Is this in the public good? Is it in the interest of the national fabric of our country and the citizens of this country to be connected? In such a vast country as Canada, the economics are always going to be challenging, especially in rural areas and in places like aging provinces, such as the Atlantic provinces.

This is not only an issue of Cape Breton; it's also a dilemma outside of urban cores. The question becomes whether it is in the public good to provide a national postal service in the same way as it is in the public good to provide a national transportation network. You don't stop the highway system in Saskatchewan because the cost per mile there doesn't provide a greater return for the trucking industy. You're going through Saskatchewan because it's connecting provinces, people, and economies. I look at the public good being served, and if it is the priority of governments, then the question for debate for parliamentarians should be about how much the public good is valued and about the gap that we have to close.

[Nick Whalen, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

I will say that since the creation of the crown corporation and over the last 35 years, we've been fortunate to receive that public good at no cost to taxpayers because it's been operating either at a profit or at a break-even point for almost every one of those years, or with small losses.

We have seen a gap in the pension liabilities. We do need to manage this change, and the scope and magnitude of the problem seem to be growing.

When it comes to new opportunities for services in your region, we heard from the previous presenters that there are slightly over 50 post offices on the island of Cape Breton, which I'm assuming has a population of around 100,000 people. That seems like a large number of postal outlets. What types of services should be provided at those outlets so they can have the hours of operation and the types and levels of service people in urban centres who have access to their post at a Shoppers Drug Mart are able to enjoy?

[Cecil Clarke]

There are about 138,000 people on the island, 100,000 within the Cape Breton region municipality. It comes back to whether you penalize someone living in a rural community that sustains the tourism industry that people love to come and be part of, because of the geographic location, or whether you support them.

[Nick Whalen, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

I'm not saying to close it. What additional services might we be able to provide to allow these post offices to be more self-sustaining?

[Cecil Clarke]

From a retail point of view, I know from going to my own postbox—I don't have home delivery and I go to the post office because I choose to have a postbox—it's a way to interact because of transactions I do as an individual. If there are other services that add value to citizens in rural areas, then we would welcome looking at those things. I know the employees want to add value and bring value when they go to work. No one wants to sit at a postal station doing nothing. That's not an engaging career. They want to serve. It's about service.

[Nick Whalen, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

We've heard a lot of proposals for postal banking. As a municipal leader, are you in favour of that?