Government Operations Committee on March 8th, 2016

[Michelle Doucet]

Thank you for the question. It's a good question.

Most of us increasingly live our lives through technology and on the Internet. Government has to work hard at staying relevant and being able to connect to Canadians. Technology evolves far more rapidly than we could ever keep up.

One of the pieces the Government of Canada has had to get its head around, especially in the last five or six years, is how we harness what we used to call web 2.0 technology and social media, and imbed that in the Government of Canada context. It's different in the public sector. We have obligations that reflect our values and ethics, like official languages and accessibility. If you have a handicap, say you can't see or hear, we need to make sure that as the Government of Canada that is accessible. Security matters and privacy are important considerations.

As we build the digital presence, we work within that operating framework, in that we're trying to satisfy Canadians' thirst for information and for knowledge. In the past it used to be that a lot was print media, but now they want to see it. Sometimes they want videos. Some people get all of their news via Twitter. I'm not a Twitter person, but I can assure you that many of my colleagues are Twitter people. My children live on YouTube. They will often report to me what they hear about what the government has done because they're watching YouTube.

The challenge for us is how to have a Government of Canada display on YouTube, on Twitter, or on Facebook in a way that respects the values and ethics of the Government of Canada.

[Erin Weir, NDP, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

It strikes me that the Prime Minister has a fairly active presence on Twitter as it stands right now. The previous prime minister had a whole online TV channel devoted to covering his activities. You alluded to that. I guess I'm wondering what's new in this modernization of the digital presence. Is it simply more videos and more pictures? I'm asking for as much specificity as possible.

[Michelle Doucet]

I think that's a good question.

As you know, Prime Minister Trudeau has been the Prime Minister since November 4, and he is in the process of developing how he would want to communicate through the Government of Canada website. He had, prior to becoming the Prime Minister, his own social media and website tools for political purposes, but those are not part of what we do at PCO. The money we're seeking is not for that. It is for building the Government of Canada capability.

We're a bit behind in that regard, and this is to help us begin to catch up. Let me give you an example of beginning to catch up.

In this case I'll speak to the previous prime minister. We were asked, I think it was in September 2014, if we had the capacity to live stream an event for Prime Minister Harper. We did not have that imbedded in the department, but we recognized it was an important Government of Canada event and nothing to do with partisan politics. We recognized that we needed to be able to provide that service to the then prime minister and to any other prime minister who would be in office. That's what we're starting to do, and we are a bit behind.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

We're at the seven minutes.

We have Mr. Graham for the final seven-minute round.

[David Graham, Liberal, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Thank you.

My question is for Ms. Donoghue.

There's an investigation sub-activity that conducts investigations, and I'm reading directly, “into allegations of improper political activities by public servants to ensure the respect of the principle of non-partisanship.” Fair enough. According to the department's performance report, only 66% of investigations were completed in the 215-day standard, out of a target of 80%.

I have a number of questions. I'll ask a couple of them quickly.

How many actual investigations does that cover, and why did it take 215 days to investigate them?

[Christine Donoghue]

I'll ask my colleague, Omer, to respond.

[Omer Boudreau, Vice-President, Corporate Management Branch, Public Service Commission]

There are a number of reasons that it took so long. We were getting investigation requests and, while working through that, realized that our processes could be better, so we made a commitment to streamline the process for investigation. Over the last few years, we've brought down the time it takes to carry out an investigation significantly, something in the order of 20% since 2014-15. We're now looking at undertaking some process, a re-engineering exercise, lean management, for example, to continue to do that. It's an ongoing process, but we're slowly working on it to reduce the amount of time that it takes.

[David Graham, Liberal, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

How many investigations does that actually represent in real numbers? If it's 66% versus 80%, is it two out of three versus four out of five, or is there actually a large number of people we're dealing with here?

[Omer Boudreau]

In the year that we're reporting on, we had 82 cases that were investigated.

[David Graham, Liberal, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Out of how many people?

[Omer Boudreau]

How many people?

[David Graham, Liberal, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Was it 82 investigations of different people or was some person investigated 40 times?

[Omer Boudreau]

No, those were 82 distinct cases that were investigated, so 82 different complaints.

[David Graham, Liberal, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

I see, okay.

Has the PSC noticed a change in the number of issues related to staffing and improper political activities in the past five years? To go back farther, is there a trend line that we can see?

[Omer Boudreau]

There is a trend that we can observe. We have seen an increase in the number of cases of fraud allegations. Now, when we talk about fraud in the context of the Public Service Employment Act, it's not necessarily always the same as a criminal fraud case. We're talking about instances where someone might have falsified documents, misrepresented themselves in one way or another, cheated on exams, for example, that type of thing. We have seen an increase in the number of complaints and resulting investigations in the area that we call fraud, which I've just described.

We are seeing fewer investigations in cases of error, omissions, or improper conduct. We believe that's because the public service, the department deputies, and so on, are getting increasingly mature in their approach to staffing in the public service. The act changed in 2005. After that, there was a bit of a learning period. We're seeing fewer cases where there are allegations of error, omissions, or improper conduct.

[David Graham, Liberal, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

If you look forward five years from now, where are you headed in terms of the number of investigations, how long they would take, and what your realistic target would be?

[Christine Donoghue]

We had an external panel who came in and did a review of some of the processes with us to see where we could increase our capacity or better our processes. Right now we are in the process of reviewing those. We are doing a lot of process mapping to see where we could improve our procedures.

The other aspect is we're doing a lot more outreach to departments to make them understand, and a lot more education about what constitutes fraud. We demonstrate what best practices departments should use to avoid fraudulent behaviour in the context of staffing. That in itself has proven to be of benefit. We are doing a lot more outreach when it comes to prevention in the context of the system.

We are going to continue to look at different procedures that can be used to shorten.... Not everything has to be done through a full-fledged investigation. For instance, in the past, if somebody were to admit to a fault committed, an investigation was the standard way. Now we have shorter processes when we have people who admit to having committed fraud, for instance. We are taking more diverse measures.

The important thing is that when we operate in the context of investigation, we fully recognize the importance of balance and the rights of all individuals to be heard and to be able to give their cases. We are looking for judicial fairness in the context of the processes we use. Sometimes these investigations are harder and more complex, and involve more people, and sometimes it's a one-on-one situation. Others involve a number of candidates in a broader process, which takes more time.

It varies because it is not necessarily a one-size-fits-all type of process, but at the same time, when you look at the number of appointments that happen within the public service in general, the number of investigations is minimal, which means that the system is actually doing very well and is very healthy. The investigations are still there to allow us to ensure that we are dealing with the most egregious cases.

[David Graham, Liberal, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

For the 34% that take longer than seven and a half months, how long can they drag on for?

[Christine Donoghue]

We have some investigations that take a few weeks, as we have investigations that are more complex in nature and require a lot more witnesses to be interviewed or heard, and we also have to respect their availability. We've had cases of investigations that have gone on for over 18 months. Right now, we are really working to see how we can better our processes. For instance, we have done a lot more paper investigations, but we are constantly looking at best practices and learning from other departments that have investigative powers to see what they have done to streamline their process.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

We'll have to cut it off there.

Now we are going into a five-minute round, but I should inform all committee members that, because our witnesses are here for the full two hours, after we go through the first rotation of seven, five, and three, we'll go back to seven-minute rounds, so those of you who have follow-up questions should have plenty of time to get them in.

We'll start the five-minute rounds with Monsieur Blaney.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I thank the witnesses from the Public Service Commission and the Privy Council.

My first question is addressed to Ms. Donoghue, who is the Acting President of the Public Service Commission.

In your report, we see the impact of our budget plan between 2011 and 2015 on the total number of public servants. It went from 216,000 to 195,000.

I note that the highest number of people hired last year were in the national capital region. Have you established a mechanism to ensure that there is a balance between the number of public servants in the national capital region and in the other regions? Is there a mechanism to ensure that there is a balance in the number of public servants in the regions, so as to avoid having a large concentration in the national capital region? Could you give us your comments in this regard?

[Christine Donoghue]

Basically, the staffing mechanisms and decisions, as well as where positions will be staffed, are not the commission's responsibility. These decisions are made by the deputy heads of organizations. However, we monitor the situation to see where staffing takes place, which allows us to provide that information to deputy heads so that they are aware of activities throughout the system.

The data does indeed show that there has been a decrease in the size of the public service as of 2011. Even if staffing activities have begun again, the size of the public service has remained the same as at that time. Staffing has begun again, but its purpose is to fill positions that became vacant in the normal way. So the size of the public service does not increase. When you see an increase in the activity, it gives the impression that the entire public service is growing. At this time, this is a function of the planning of the deputy heads. When positions become vacant in the regions, the commission works with its regional offices to help with the recruiting and create processes to facilitate hiring in the regions.

We have done something else. We often hear it said that recruitment in the regions can be difficult. In light of the new policy aimed at ensuring a better balance and facilitating recruitment in the regions, as well as to resist the reflex of bringing positions back to Ottawa, we have made our policies more flexible to allow for exceptions in the context of a much more regional approach to staffing, under the direction of the department head.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC]

Thank you very much for your answer.

I'm going to move on immediately to the Privy Council representative.

Is there coordination at the Privy Council to ensure that the Canadian public service is distributed uniformly throughout Canada?

[Michelle Doucet]

Yes, in a very general way.

I said in my opening remarks that one of the roles of the Privy Council Office was to house Michael Wernick, who is the head of the public service, and to foster a high-performing public service.

In PCO we actually have one of our branches that is called the business transformation and renewal secretariat. Its mandate is to take a whole-of-government approach, which is to step back and see what's happening across the government, whether it be with respect to recruitment, to management mechanisms, or to compensation mechanisms.

We have a very important governance housed in that, and that is the management committee of deputy ministers, who meet on a regular basis to consider how the totality of the public service is operating. They're supported by very important departments, such as the Public Service Commission, the office of the chief human resources officer, and by other portions of the Treasury Board Secretariat. To answer your previous question, they will have a look at how many public servants we have in the regions and whether there is balance across the country. What is, to speak to Madam Ratansi's question, the balance in diversity? Are we getting the kind of talent that we need? Is there a problem in recruiting, for instance, women into the technology category, into the CS category? Does that go back into the university recruitment level? It's to dig through that.

In short, yes, but it's at what I would call a very high senior executive level.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

We'll have to cut you off there. We're past the five minutes.

Mr. Ayoub.