Government Operations Committee on Oct. 20th, 2016

[Michelle Sanson]

Many of the residents who are moving in are aware that this is going to be the service they're going to be provided.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

They tend to be younger people—

[Michelle Sanson]

Yes, they are younger.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

—who are already using digital mail. It's less of an issue for them. That kind of consultation did take place. Thank you very much.

Mr. Watson, just on the door-to-door, let's be clear that a lot of what's considered door-to-door or use of community mailboxes is actually apartment buildings. In a very dense urban centre, people essentially have door-to-door even though it's going into their mailboxes. They appreciate that because there's no issue with security and so on.

I just wanted to ask you a question as a businessman. Would you increase your prices by 30% overnight? How would that affect your clientele?

[Harry Watson]

Again, we're a very competitive grocery business. The 2% bottom line is the top bottom line. So if you raise it 3%...?

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

At 30%.... We saw that with Canada Post, a dramatic increase in stamp prices.

[Harry Watson]

That would hurt me. It would kill me.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

It's certainly, from a business point of view, not the wisest thing to do.

[Harry Watson]

No, definitely not.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Thank you very much for that.

Ms. Perkins and Ms. Marshall-Colenutt, you mentioned the asset, the postal station, having additional space. It would be interesting to see community non-profit organizations in there. A community hub is something that's come up as an option for the real estate locations that Canada Post has across the country.

What would your idea be? Do you have a vision of what that could look like, either in your community or in, say, a remote community?

[Brenda Marshall-Colenutt]

I haven't really thought of it in that context. I'd have to really sit down and take a look at that. I know in Moose Jaw we have a lot of non-profit organizations that do not have a meeting place, a regular office, or anything, because of the rents, etc., in the city.

If Canada Post...I know they used to have empty spaces upstairs. I don't know if the office here still does. That would be viable, at a reasonable rate, for these non-profit organizations.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Do you see that citizens would see Canada Post as a political place or as a neutral place?

[Brenda Marshall-Colenutt]

I think a lot of them would see it as a fiscal responsibility because you have a big building that's not being used. In our mind, it would be a total waste, but if you're using it to help out the community organizations, it could be a win-win.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

So it could help with social inclusion, with belonging....

[Brenda Marshall-Colenutt]

Right, it could help with belonging, with having a place to meet.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Okay. Thank you very much.

I think that's it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Thank you.

To all of our witnesses, thank you once again for being here and for taking time out of your busy schedules. Should any of you have any additional information that you wish to submit for the benefit of this committee during our deliberations, please do so. You can contact our clerk and make those submissions directly through our clerk.

We will be tabling a report in Parliament, probably at the latter part of November, or at the latest, the early part of December. If you're going to submit additional information, I would ask that you do that within the next 10 days to two weeks at the latest.

Mr. Gulka-Tiechko, we're all politicians around this table, so please express our best wishes to Her Worship. We understand completely why she wasn't able to be here in person today with an election looming in just a few days.

Thank you, all.

We will suspend for a few moments while we wait for our next witnesses to approach the table.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Colleagues, we'll reconvene, please.

I think most of our witnesses were present for the first session, so they pretty well know how things work. We'll be asking each organization to give a five-minute opening statement. I'll try to keep that as close to five minutes or less as I possibly can. That will be followed by a series of questions from all our committee members. Other than that, it's pretty straightforward.

With that, then, we'll start. First on my list is Ms. Friars.

You have five minutes or less, please.

[Lori Friars, Coordinator, Moose Jaw & District Senior Association]

My name is Lori Friars. I'm the coordinator of the Moose Jaw and District Seniors Association. With me is Wayne McGregor, the president of the association.

According to the 2011 census, the percentage of the population age 65 and older in Moose Jaw was 18.6%, compared with the national percentage of 14.8%. That percentage, I would assume, has only increased since 2011—and we heard from the city earlier that it is higher—because there was an additional 5% of Moose Javians who were age 60 to 64 at that time.

Over the past few weeks, I've spoken to a number of seniors to hear their thoughts about Canada Post. Those I spoke with all voiced that they felt Canada Post was a highly valuable public service that they wanted to see continue. For many seniors, the mail is their connection to their families. Families today are not just spread across the city, but across the country and the world. Many seniors depend on the mail system to keep in contact with their family, to send and receive greetings and packages on special occasions, and to pay their bills. According to the “Canada Post in the digital age” study, three in 10 Canadians prefer to receive paper bills to digital. This is particularly true with older Canadians. Some 47% of Canadians 60 years and older prefer paper bills. Many seniors do not have access to the Internet, or do not own nor have ever used a computer.

I asked one senior what her thoughts were on converting post offices to franchise outlets. Her response was that it was not a good idea, that it “would be giving up Canada Post's reputation.” When I asked what she meant by that, she said, “You know that the post office is dependable. When you go there, you know that you and your letters and your parcels are their number one concern. When you go to a franchise outlet, the mail is not necessarily their main concern. They're concerned about stocking the shelves, running the pharmacy, selling their product, etc. Sometimes you have to even ring a bell to get them to come from their other business to look after you at the postal station. So what do they know about the mail system?”

Most seniors I spoke to talked about the community mailboxes, so that's where I'm going to focus my presentation. I believe most of the homes in Moose Jaw, if not all, have community mailbox delivery. While seniors are learning to live with these boxes, they have concerns.

For seniors with mobility issues, getting to and from the mailbox, which is sometimes a block or more away, is difficult at best in the warmer months, and nearly impossible in the winter months. Imagine trying to use a walker or some other mobility device for a block to pick up your mail through snow, ice, or even just a build-up of leaves. This is assuming that it's a flat, level sidewalk, which we all know is not the case. According to Parachute Canada's “The Cost of Injury in Canada” report from September 2015, seniors were over four times more likely to be hospitalized for injuries than people under age 65. At 76.5%, unintentional falls were the most frequent cause of injury hospitalizations in seniors. The older the senior, the higher their proportion of hospitalized injuries.

I spoke with one senior who had been homebound for a few months. When I asked why, she told me she had gone down to the mailbox and had become dizzy. She grabbed onto the mailbox. The next thing she knew she was waking up on the ground, having hit her head. That was nearly two months ago, and she still has not recovered.

Some seniors have weekly home delivery by Canada Post, and those who I spoke to said that while they appreciated the service, they felt that weekly wasn't enough. They rely on their families and neighbours and pay other people to check their mail on other days. Most seniors are on a fixed income and do not have the resources to pay someone to assist them with the mail. A lot of them weren't aware that this was even available.

The trend today is to have seniors remain in their own homes for as long as possible. Community mailboxes are one obstacle to this. When you have decreased mobility, it's difficult to get around your home. Imagine trying to walk across the street or down the block. Home mail service is one way to prevent injuries to seniors, but it's also a means of communication for some. With home delivery, you often know your letter carrier by name, and they know the people on their route. They would see if mail were piling up, and that was unusual.

Some people drive to the mailboxes, that's an option for some, but what about seniors who no longer have a driver's licence?

A couple of other things that were identified was the cost of letter and parcel postage. The cost of stamps most thought was reasonable, but delivering packages, particularly internationally, was very expensive. There were concerns about damage to packages when outsourced and who would be responsible, and concerns about emissions from all the vehicles going to the community boxes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Thank you very much.

Next up we have Ms. Sanderson, representing the Canadian Union of Postal Workers.

You have five minutes, please. The floor is yours.

[Julee Sanderson, President, Saskatoon Local, Canadian Union of Postal Workers]

Good morning.

Thank you very much for giving me this opportunity to speak to all of you.

First, I'd like to recognize the Treaty No. 4 land that we are on here today.

My name is Julee Sanderson. I'm the local president of CUPW in Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, so I'm visiting here in this beautiful city of Moose Jaw.

As a trade unionist, I spend most of my time concentrating on grievances, bargaining contract interpretations, daily discussions with my employer over working conditions, and issues, many of which relate to CMBs, community mailboxes, their location, frozen locks, access to those CMBs, snow and debris removal, and buildup of flyers, which is a major issue.

For years my union, the Canadian Union of Postal Workers, has implemented social policies that aim to protect fundamental environmental principles. CUPW is committed to being a progressive and creative force in areas of environmental stewardship and sustainable resource use. CUPW will seek to build solidarity between the union and environmental groups, with specific objectives that include demanding the federal government respect international treaties on climate change.

Everyone here today has a concern for their environment, for their working future, and for future generations. We need to ask ourselves what can we bring, what can we do to make some changes, and what sort of ideas can we bring to the table in discussions about the future of the public post office? With that in mind, CUPW worked together with some of its allies to develop what is called Delivering Community Power, a project that was done with CPAA, the Leap Manifesto, Smart Change, and ACORN Canada. All have partnered together to bring us the building blocks for a sustainable postal future that addresses economic, environmental, and social issues, all at the same time.

Our post office can become a centre of community care and economic development, all while bringing down emissions. Some consider the post office past its prime. The last decade has seen many efforts to cut, devalue, and undermine this quintessential public service. Most of these moves have been fiercely resisted by people across this country. Ninety-two per cent of people polled during the task force review believe that door-to-door service is essential for people with mobility issues. What if our cherished national institution with its vast physical infrastructure and millions of daily human interactions could offer us something different? What if the post office could play a central role in building our next economy that is made more stable, more equal, and less polluting.

Some people think of Canada Post as just letters and stamps. In our next economy our postal service could deliver everything from food to clean energy and create thousands of green jobs in the process. Canada Post is this country's largest transportation and shipping network, with over 15,000 vehicles, and we, as Canadians, own it. With the largest public fleet in the country, federal infrastructure funding could add a nationwide network for charging electric vehicles, which would act as a springboard toward a shift to low-carbon vehicles. Electric charging stations could be added to every post office, which would encourage public use and build a solid infrastructure for electric vehicles.

There are almost twice as many post offices as there are Tim Hortons and McDonald's combined, with over 6,300 offices countrywide. How can we use this powerful network to drive the transition to a zero-carbon Canada? We could put solar panels on our post offices with retrofits, to save energy. We could add charging stations to power our postal fleet and your electric car. Post offices could also provide banking services, without the big banks' unfair fees, and finance green energy infrastructure and businesses. Last year alone big banks in Canada raked in profits of over $35 billion across this country, all while cutting jobs and raising their fees for day-to-day services. Millions of Canadians do not have bank accounts at all. Access to banking is limited in indigenous communities, where only 54 of 615 first nations communities are served by local bank branches. All the while over two million people in Canada use payday lenders every year. Those payday lenders prey on the underbanked, the poor, and those who can least afford to be charged interest rates of over 400%.

Every year, workers in Canada transfer billions of dollars to family members overseas, but the cost of sending them money can be as high as 20% on smaller amounts. These rates hurt the people who depend on them the most. Postal banking could provide basic financial services for everyone. From Confederation until 1968 post office savings were offered until the big banks opposed the post office and opposed those services.

We could have a fleet of electric postal vehicles built by unionized workers here in Canada. In Germany, many municipalities now produce more power from renewable sources than they consume, creating over 400,000 new jobs in the process. The postal service could deliver affordable food to remote communities in the north and support digital innovation across the country. Instead of relying on the northern food program, which gouges the people in those remote communities, the post office could easily turn back to its practice of shipping food along with the mail it ships anyway. With expanded door-to-door services, postal workers could coordinate with other care services and check in with people who sign up, thereby helping us to live in our homes for longer as we age.

We are ready to leap to a greener economy in caring for the earth and for each other, and a revitalized postal service can deliver that. From coast to coast to coast, support for this vision is growing. We are the stewards of this earth.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Thank you very much. I encourage our panellists to please try and keep it to five minutes or less, so that we can allow for questions. Finally, we have Ms. Krahenbil, for five minutes, please.

[Shelly Krahenbil, President, Saskatchewan Branch, Canadian Postmasters and Assistants Association]

Thank you for the opportunity.

My name is Shelly Krahenbil. I'm the president of the Canadian Postmasters and Assistants Association here in Saskatchewan. Nationally, CPAA represents postmasters and assistants in 3,229 rural post offices, with approximately 8,700 members across Canada and over 1,300 here in Saskatchewan.

According to Canada Post's own reports, rural and corporate post offices are the most cost-effective method of mail delivery. If this is the most cost-effective method of delivery, I question why Canada Post is recommending that 800 of the most profitable corporate offices be replaced with franchises. Is this the beginning of the end of corporate offices and the path to privatization?

We are part of the largest distribution network in Canada, a fact that Canada Post proudly points out to its customers. In spite of these facts, Canada Post has been reducing rural postal service and closing down its delivery network since the moratorium, even before it announced the five-point action plan.

In many cases in rural Saskatchewan the postmaster in these small communities is actually subsidizing Canada Post through supply of the premises and their wage structure. In some situations the postmaster is paid less than minimum wage for a portion of their hours in a day. With this in mind, reduction of hours in these offices makes a position unattractive, resulting in resignations. The vacant positions are then difficult to staff and the offices close, therefore reducing postal service.

According to a study commissioned by CPAA and conducted by Anderson Consulting, over 55% of franchises created by Canada Post that replaced corporate offices closed, making it necessary for the customers to travel longer and longer distances. We have communities where the commute to the post office to collect a parcel is greater than 75 kilometres. This presents a hardship, especially to our seniors, but also the community as a whole.

The franchise post office does not, in our opinion, give Canadians the same service as the corporate post office. In rural Canada the franchise employees' first loyalty would be to the franchise's host business. Canada Post provides training to only one employee and the rest is trickle-down training. Franchisees often ignore new products and services, hours of operation, and other commitments because the business is more complex than they bargained for. The franchise model uses rural and suburban mail carriers and community mailboxes to achieve delivery, which costs much more than the centralized rural post office.

When Canada Post closes rural post offices, it contributes to the demise of the business district of the town. With the rural post office the residents have to come to town, and typically will spend money in other businesses in town. When forced to go to a nearby community to do their postal business, there is more incentive to shop in that community, not their own.

We strongly feel the study produced by the review committee dismisses several money-making initiatives that would improve Canada Post's financial position without further eroding postal service to rural Canadians. Canada Post prepared its own study, which called the postal banking initiative a win-win situation. There are over 1,200 communities in Canada that have corporate post offices but no bank. By using our current network we could provide these services to the community, once again enabling a vibrant rural community.

Using our current network to expand government services such as those offered in Service Canada outlets, at little cost to the government, would improve viability. We could use our current network to explore green initiatives such as recharging stations for electric vehicles, and Internet services in rural Canada, where it is often lacking.

We respectfully submit that there are ways for Canada Post to achieve its financial goals without the current trend of eroding service to rural Canadians. Please widen the discussion to take into account rural Canada and its potential demise. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Thank you very much, all of you.

Our first intervention will be seven minutes, and it will be Mr. Whalen.

[Nick Whalen, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

Thanks to all of you for coming today. It's great to hear all the different perspectives, certainly from groups representing seniors and unions. As someone who's coming from a rural background, I would say that our committee hasn't had much time as I'd hoped to visit rural Canada, so your perspective is particularly valued.

We were elected on a promise to grow the economy by protecting middle-class jobs and also on a commitment to help seniors enjoy a dignified retirement by, among other things, staying in their homes longer. When we talk about a transformation of Canada Post, we want to keep those ideas in mind.

Certainly, when it comes to saving the postal service we provide, we promised to do two things. One was to put a moratorium in place on the current implementation of of the five-point plan, and two, to do this consultation, which we've done, and we've learned a lot.

One of the things that's come up is the difference between what's expected of the postal service from rural Canadians versus what's expected by urban Canadians.

Ms. Krahenbil, do you think that maybe there should be a different management structure or a different approach between the types of services and the level of service provided in rural areas versus urban areas?