Government Operations Committee on Oct. 20th, 2016

[Keith Nixon]

In conclusion, SaskCentral and the Canadian Credit Union Association thank the committee for the opportunity to contribute. SaskCentral and the Canadian Credit Union Association are not supportive of Canada Post entering the banking market as a means to address the challenges arising in its core business areas.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Thank you.

Ms. Schick, you have five minutes, please.

[Holly Schick, Executive Director, Saskatchewan Seniors Mechanism]

Chair and committee members, thank you for the opportunity to make a presentation here today.

I'm Holly Schick, the executive director of the Saskatchewan Seniors Mechanism, which is a provincial non-profit organization that brings together other seniors organizations to work together on various projects and on raising issues related to older adults.

We have 16 member organizations that collectively have a membership of approximately 100,000 older adults. The organizations are mostly provincial in nature and include such groups as the Superannuated Teachers of Saskatchewan, the Saskatchewan Retirees Association, the National Association of Federal Retirees, and the Fédération des aînés fransaskois. We have a number of supporter organizations, such as the Saskatchewan Registered Nurses' Association and the Saskatchewan Association of Rural Municipalities. We also have a partnership agreement with the Saskatchewan Urban Municipalities Association.

Our organization is currently working on creating age-friendly communities, addressing ageism in media, and reducing isolation of older adults. Current issue areas that we are looking at include home care, prescription drug costs, pensions, and reducing abuse of older adults.

I'll turn it over to Randy Dove, our vice-president.

[Randy Dove, Vice-President, Saskatchewan Seniors Mechanism]

Thank you, and thank you for this opportunity.

Certainly, from the Saskatchewan Seniors Mechanism's perspective, we wanted to ensure that we spent a moment just trying to provide some characterization of the older adults whom we serve in Saskatchewan. We certainly know from our members and from our feedback that older adults prefer to stay in their communities, stay in their homes as long as possible, and maintain their independence, and they look for and have varying needs for services, depending on where they choose to live.

They are in transition in terms of the use of electronic services. Not all older adults are computer illiterate. That isn't increasing as baby boomers move into that category. There are more people becoming more computer literate, but our elderly members and elderly older adults are less so these days.

We find older adults can become very isolated and vulnerable if their service access is limited. As far as mail delivery is concerned, this is an important service for all Canadians, especially older adults. We see mail delivery as a point of access, a way to connect, to communicate, and to access services to stay connected with family and the community they choose to live in.

Distance is an issue. We certainly support the concept of regular home delivery. Our members tell us that we could certainly consider the concept of home delivery that is less frequent than daily; however, access to community mailboxes is problematic in Saskatchewan, particularly in winter, when we have snow and icy conditions and people have difficulty getting to community mailboxes. We would ask the committee to consider that.

Service is better in urban centres. There are other issues in rural Saskatchewan that have different challenges. Transportation and access are issues in many small communities across the province.

We do see the role of Canada Post, particularly in rural Saskatchewan, as being part of a community hub, a notion for contact, a gathering spot, a place where people can come together in smaller communities particularly. They have over time almost become a community centre by default, because they are a destination for people to pick up their correspondence. The whole concept of community hubs, community development, and connections is part of the age-friendly concept, which is really a global movement that was started through the World Health Organization to create community inclusiveness and bring people together.

We have some questions, some concerns, some thoughts about northern access. Northern Saskatchewan does have limited or no traditional financial institutions, and there's insufficient electronic access in the north. Not all Canadians have embraced the concept of e-payments. People still look for paper cheques from time to time. We see Canada Post as potentially a catalyst for northern services for older adults.

The last thing we wanted to touch on just in passing, because we saw it in the task force material, was the whole issue of pensions. It is a key concern for the Saskatchewan Seniors Mechanism. We always will advocate for adequate income for older adults because it's directly linked to the quality of life. We think pension preservation is something that should remain a priority for both Canada Post and organizations in general. Older adults do rely on pension income as a key source to retain their independence and continue to contribute.

With that, I thank you very much for listening and for our opportunity to present.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Thank you very much.

Our final panellist will be Ms. Friesen, please, for five minutes.

[Marg Friesen, Lead Consultant, Saskatchewan Voice of People with Disabilities Inc.]

Thank you.

I'd like to thank the committee for this opportunity on behalf of the people with disabilities in this province for being consulted about the importance of the current postal service and the impact the potential changes have on Canada Post.

Saskatchewan Voice of People with Disabilities is a community-based organization that promotes inclusion and addresses concerns affecting the lives of persons with disabilities. Persons with disabilities have had to adapt, modify, and overcome adversity throughout their lives, whether they were born with a disability or acquired it through an injury or illness. Attitudinal, social, economic, or systemic barriers are experienced on a daily basis. It's not uncommon, nor is it a surprise, to experience discrimination or exclusion in communities based on such barriers.

I've had the privilege to learn from individuals with disabilities who have struggled and overcome adversities and continue to thrive. Unfortunately, a substantial number of people with disabilities are overwhelmed and have lost hope. These are the people we serve.

Our organization continues to support persons with disabilities because we believe it is a fundamental right for every citizen to participate and contribute to community life. Whether a disability is prolonged, enduring, or short term, individuals should not have to continually adapt to the environment, as has always been expected in society. Strides have been made in the areas of accessibility and inclusion; however, in our opinion, we still have a long way to go in this country. Status quo is not an option, nor is exclusivity when we are discussing public services.

This brings me to the issue of potential cost-cutting measures with postal delivery.

The potential changes to door-to-door mail delivery will negatively impact persons with disabilities and become additional barriers in the lives of many in Saskatchewan. We, as an advocacy agency, do not support a model of community mailbox postal delivery. There are no benefits for persons with disabilities. They face imminent risks on a daily basis. They fear for their personal safety. Having community mailbox locations away from their home and safe environment, where they would have to travel by vehicle or other means, puts people at a greater risk of harm or violence. This would be a detriment to their safety and well-being.

With the inclement weather conditions in Saskatchewan, streets and roadways often become impassable, blocked, or unsafe to drive or walk. This increases the potential risk of personal injury. We promote an independent lifestyle for persons with disabilities. Potentially relying on someone to retrieve their mail will put a person at risk for other forms of abuse, such as identity theft or financial abuse.

Not all citizens live a comfortable lifestyle, with income levels that support an ideal quality of life. They depend on food security programs to eat and live in substandard housing because this is what they can afford, and most often in unsafe neighbourhoods. Persons with disabilities sometimes are limited in improving their circumstances due to limited resources. Therefore, adding another barrier relating to postal delivery creates undue hardships, hardships that are preventable.

With regard to the possibility of addressing options for mail delivery for persons with disabilities, we understand there have been suggestions for a system under which individuals would have to meet criteria to qualify for such a service. This is unacceptable. To expect a person with a significant or enduring disability to prove they are disabled is undignified, not to mention the financial constraints it will cause. This potential solution merits further discussion to be acceptable for the disability community and for individuals with disabilities.

The potential proposal to end door-to-door mail delivery would reduce access to postal service in general, and it would become inaccessible for a large percentage of the population. This percentage is growing, not diminishing. In our aging population, one out of two Canadians will report a level of disability. This is cause for concern for all programs and services. To assume all citizens can afford adaptive technology or communication services to access postal services is unrealistic. The people we serve go without these supports because of the additional cost factor.

In closing, we express our gratitude for having the opportunity to share our concerns. We're hopeful there is potential for inclusive, affordable solutions that are in the interests of all citizens of Canada.

Accessibility and inclusion were the focus of a recent discussion we had with the federal government, and it is the focus for this government to create communities that are accessible. The Saskatchewan Voice of People with Disabilities supports these principles, based on a person-centred approach, and we look forward to continuing the dialogue.

Thank you for your time.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Thank you very much, all of you, for your presentations.

We'll start now with our seven-minute round of questions and answers.

Mr. Whalen, sir, you are up.

[Nick Whalen, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thanks to all of you for coming today. It's great to hear from groups that represent different views. We've heard from municipalities, and it's great to hear from pensioners' associations, disability associations, and also the credit unions, of course, because postal banking has been a hot topic at all the locations we've gone to, and it's certainly something that the union wants us to investigate further.

Mr. Nixon, do you feel that there is an opportunity for credit unions to partner with Canada Post to provide a greater geographical reach for the services you provide? Do you see a market there?

[Keith Nixon]

I thank you for the question.

We are certainly very open to engaging with the government in terms of exploring partnership opportunities. We've had examples far back in our history of small-town credit unions and postal outlets even sharing locations, so I think that if there are opportunities to help each other out, this is something we'd be open to taking a look at.

I think the big challenge is that with the continuing development of technology, even our credit union physical locations are finding it a challenge to keep up with consumer behaviour. Branch traffic through the doors of a credit union branch in a small community has significantly declined as members look to other innovations, such as mobile banking, computer-accessible banking, and even mobile banking on smart phones and by other means.

In one of our credit unions we've recently introduced an innovative approach with a mobile advisory centre, literally a branch built on wheels, that travels to remote locations on a periodic basis to try to serve the underserved areas where permanent physical locations can be underused. We've had this service up in northern communities, in aboriginal communities, and in other areas where more of a part-time service is appropriate.

This is the kind of thing that we're trying out. We'd be happy to discuss those opportunities.

[Nick Whalen, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

When the credit union tries to determine whether or not there's sufficient demand to open up a new location or to close one where there is insufficient demand, do you use guidelines for determining what constitutes the right catchment area, how far people need to drive to receive the service, and the population density? Can you share some of those metrics with us?

[Keith Nixon]

In terms of starting a new credit union, there are some metrics around what kind of a deposit level might be required to operate a separate financial institution, and those thresholds are growing higher all the time. Do you have a commitment of a local deposit base that would place funds on deposit? Can you generate enough income off that to build capital that creates a sound and safe financial institution? Often the answer to a declining community is to have a branch of another credit union, a credit union with sufficient scale to maintain those operations.

That said, even in our larger organizations that have services in the declining communities, it really comes down to branch traffic and the kinds of access points that warrant having people physically on staff at the site and having the building and the location.

Another issue is that you can bring staff down to a low enough level that it actually starts to jeopardize the safety of the people in these operations from other elements. An example is having a single teller on service for a period of time. There are some thresholds that go into the consideration. Also, can that community be conveniently served from a neighbouring community on more of a part-time basis?

[Nick Whalen, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

What would be the smallest community you would have a branch in, if you can tell us off the top of your head?

[Keith Nixon]

I couldn't tell you exactly the population number. We can certainly offer to bring that back to you as information to the committee.

In some of these cases that we're talking about, the communities are very small. Rather than speculating, I think it would be best to get you that number.

[Nick Whalen, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you.

To the Saskatchewan Voice of People with Disabilities and the Saskatchewan Seniors Mechanism, when people talk about door-to-door delivery, community mailboxes, and single-point delivery in an apartment building, different people, when they come to speak with us, have different concepts in mind.

The task force report looks at five models of delivery. There is a general delivery and there is a rural route where people would have delivery to their mailbox at the end of their laneway or driveway. There would be a post office in a small hamlet or village, or in a small town. There would be community mailboxes, the super-mailboxes on the side of the road. The ground floor of apartment buildings will often have some place where the postie would leave the mail in individual boxes, and then, of course, there is actual to-your-door service.

When we talk about these, which of them do you consider sufficiently good service, and which of them do you consider to be not what is wanted when we talk about getting rid of something or reverting back to door-to-door delivery? Which of these levels of service are you speaking about?

[Holly Schick]

It very much depends on the community. In urban centres, door-to-door delivery is very important to many people. In rural communities, having service within the community somewhere is really important.

In a rural community, often many people will know who their neighbours are and they can get someone to pick up their mail for them, so it's not as important to have that door-to-door kind of delivery. However, transportation is a big issue for rural older adults, so anything that means people have to go outside of their immediate community is difficult.

In urban centres, it's much more difficult to have someone go and pick up your mail for you because you don't necessarily have family or close friends who are your immediate neighbours, and you don't necessarily know your neighbours that well.

I live in an apartment-style condo, and it's quite adequate that our mailboxes are on the main floor of the building, and we get our mail that way. That works very well for people.

It really depends on the size of the community and the situation.

[Whalen]

So you consider—

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

I'm sorry; time is up, Mr. Whalen.

Perhaps our next intervenor might be able to pick up on your train of thought.

We will go to Mr. Clarke for seven minutes.

[Alupa Clarke, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Hello everyone. Thank you for being with us today in the wonderful city of Regina.

I'll begin with you, Mr. Nixon.

I'll start with a short introduction, and then I'll ask you three questions.

There are two models that will ensure Canada Post's survival. There are two different paradigms to make it sustainable. These two models were presented by various witnesses over the past few days and weeks.

According to the first model suggested, for Canada Post to survive in the long term, its services need to be reduced and its infrastructure needs to be consolidated to ensure its profitability.

According to the other model or business plan, the crown corporation must expand its range of services, for example by launching a postal bank or taking care of passport applications.

Which model or paradigm should Canada Post adopt? You're the chief executive officer of a large financial institution. Surely you must know a great deal about the model that will best ensure the survival of the great institution of Canada Post.

[Keith Nixon]

On the two paradigms, that is a very familiar set of paradigm questions that apply to the credit union system and to financial services, so we have that in common with Canada Post.

It really comes down to physical delivery models that have built up over a period of history, and now moving to different methods and different access channels through the use of technology and other approaches. In small towns, we face the same challenges of whether to reduce services to the point of closing the door or of finding other methods of addressing those same services.

It's not exclusively a matter of expanding the business and getting into other lines of business that might not be core to the business of the entity. We stay quite carefully focused on providing financial services, and we look at augmenting that activity based on the needs of the members in the communities. Our biggest channel is to develop different methods as demanded by consumers in terms of access to that channel.

That would be my main focus or suggestion: to think about the different ways and means, and to think about innovation in how the services can be provided.

[Alupa Clarke, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Mr. Nixon, if, tomorrow morning, you were the CEO of Canada Post, you wouldn't categorically choose either paradigm, but you would try to mix the two. Is that correct?

[Keith Nixon]

Yes. I think it would be focusing on the methods as much as adding services, and looking to future innovations in the ways in which the services are provided. For us, the innovations in transportation, technology, and communication are challenging the ways in which we provide financial services. Financial services are still the core, but it's the ways and means by which we provide those services.

[Alupa Clarke, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

A number of measures proposed by Canada Post and findings made by the task force appointed by the liberal government support service reductions.

A number of union members told us that if we meddle with post offices or lift the moratorium on the closure of rural post offices, for example, it would be the beginning of the end. They think that if we dare to meddle with the enormous infrastructure—one of Canada Post's greatest assets—the end would be inevitable.

Do you think this vision is false or accurate?

[Keith Nixon]

Sorry, could you repeat? Did you say the vision is to continue to close the smaller ones if there isn't action?

[Alupa Clarke, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

In the paradigm of reducing services, is the angle absolutely that Canada Post will not exist anymore? A lot of people told us that.

[Keith Nixon]

If I draw on the experience of credit union services, I can point to the change in our infrastructure as a credit union system.

In the past 15 years, say, the number of credit unions across Canada has declined from something like 1,000 or 900 down to 300. At the same time, they have continued to grow in terms of membership, as well as in terms of business volume, deposits, loans, and these types of things. The financial services activity is growing, but the number of credit unions and the physical infrastructure are changing.

Underneath those 300 credit unions, there are many branches and locations involved, but there are also the innovations in technology that people often forget about—mobile banking, the smart phone applications, and all these different ways of providing services through the innovations of technology. The physical infrastructure that has been built in the past is now changing because of disruptive technology in how we can provide the services.