It's been a process that, on a secular basis over a period of time, I think has become less meaningful. There was a time when the main estimates and the ministers coming before committees to defend their estimates was considered a big deal to parliamentarians, and it was central to the job of parliamentarians.
We were talking about the Senate earlier, and I have to tell you that within the Senate, there are senators who actually, I must say, understand this process more thoroughly and who make a point of holding ministers to account on estimates in a very effective way. I think my officials would agree with that. You might want to go to a Senate committee where ministers are appearing on their estimates.
This is something that's happened on a secular basis over a longer period of time. It's not purely a partisan thing. The question is, how do we fix it? This is something we take very seriously. I know there's been really good work done by the officials in our department on this. I pointed out earlier the Australian model.
I think, Mr. Graham, you were at the session we did with parliamentarians a few weeks ago.