Evidence of meeting #50 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was main.
A video is available from Parliament.
12:05 p.m.
Liberal
Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS
Thank you very much. I appreciate the question.
Transport Canada's pilot project is an opportunity for us to consider taking the same approach to the changes with other departments. There have been positive results thus far, and perhaps Mr. Pagan can tell you about them and also address the other applications that could be tested in future using the same approach.
12:10 p.m.
Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management, Treasury Board Secretariat
Thank you for your question.
In 2015-2016, the Department of Transport had a single vote of approximately $600 million for grants. In this pilot project, we are working with the department to test the way votes are used for ports of entry and corridors, transportation infrastructure, and so on. The idea is to separate votes based on the terms and conditions of each grant program. This is one way to give Parliament a clearer idea of exactly how the resources supporting certain programs are being used. Obviously, the fiscal year is under way, and we therefore have no final results for the moment. However, this way of doing things clearly poses no problems for the departments and provides parliamentarians with a better instrument for gauging the way these resources are used.
12:10 p.m.
Liberal
Ramez Ayoub Liberal Thérèse-De Blainville, QC
Am I mistaken in saying the Department of Transport has managed simultaneously to absorb this change, achieve results, and function? I suppose it has had to do both, that is to say continue using the old method while testing the new one?
12:10 p.m.
Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management, Treasury Board Secretariat
That is correct.
Consider the example of the nearly $600 million vote. In future, the department will be able to separate those resources and report results specific to each vote. Thus there will be one vote for corridors and another for transportation infrastructure. That will provide a more specific overview that focuses more on those programs.
12:10 p.m.
Liberal
Ramez Ayoub Liberal Thérèse-De Blainville, QC
Has any particular approach been taken to address preparation, training within the department, and employee training? How much time did it take to prepare before this pilot project was put in place?
12:10 p.m.
Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management, Treasury Board Secretariat
This pilot project stems from a report that this committee prepared in 2012. Since then, we have worked with the department to prepare the pilot project. There was no particular training and there were no problems with the financial system. We simply had to identify the best example and work with the department to demonstrate the benefits of this approach.
12:10 p.m.
Liberal
Ramez Ayoub Liberal Thérèse-De Blainville, QC
Were cost estimates established for the pilot project's large-scale implementation across all departments? The aim is to make changes to increase efficiency and transparency. What are the costs associated with those changes? Do you have any estimates of future costs? Is the pilot project providing that kind of information?
12:10 p.m.
Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management, Treasury Board Secretariat
For the moment, this is a pilot project involving a single department. In the next phase, it will be extended to include other votes and especially other operating votes to gain a clearer understanding of the costs and benefits of this approach.
12:10 p.m.
Liberal
Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS
There is another benefit to this approach. We are going to extend it to other programs. It will be easier for Parliament to measure results and thus to consider the objectives of this process and program. That will represent major change in overall government efficiency.
12:15 p.m.
Conservative
12:15 p.m.
NDP
Erin Weir NDP Regina—Lewvan, SK
Thank you, Mr. Minister, for sticking around.
I want to return to the theme of effective opposition. I'm wondering whether you could clarify if the proposed reforms would change the number of supply days in the House.
12:15 p.m.
Liberal
Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS
I don't have the answer to that, Mr. Weir, in terms of the impact on the number of supply days. I'll get back to you on that.
12:15 p.m.
NDP
Erin Weir NDP Regina—Lewvan, SK
Okay: so you can't provide any assurance that the number of supply days would not be reduced as a result of these changes?
12:15 p.m.
Liberal
Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS
Brian, do you have something...?
We'll get you an exact answer.
12:15 p.m.
Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management, Treasury Board Secretariat
I can tell you, Mr. Weir, that there is no intention to impact that in any way. The number of supply periods would remain the same. Supply days are negotiated by the government and opposition. There's no correlation here.
12:15 p.m.
Liberal
Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS
I don't see why there would be an impact, but I just want to make sure of that.
12:15 p.m.
NDP
Erin Weir NDP Regina—Lewvan, SK
Okay. If you could come back just a little more concretely on that one, I would appreciate it.
12:15 p.m.
Liberal
Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS
Yes, absolutely. But beyond that, the objective here is to improve committee scrutiny of the government in terms of expenditures.
12:15 p.m.
NDP
Erin Weir NDP Regina—Lewvan, SK
We appreciate that. In terms of those expenditures, the majority of estimates for most departments would be to pay those departments' employees. This committee's been looking at the Phoenix payroll system. I appreciate that you're not the minister directly responsible, but the Treasury Board does provide the employer function for the federal government.
We've been told that the backlog in Phoenix will be cleared up by the end of October, which is a week away. I'm just wondering if you and Treasury Board have confidence that this will happen and the government will be properly paying its employees by the end of the month.
12:15 p.m.
Liberal
Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS
I believe last week the deputy minister at Public Services and Procurement Canada did an update on that and a briefing and addressed this situation. As the employer, we at Treasury Board work closely with Public Services and Procurement Canada, where the Phoenix system is housed. It is absolutely fundamental to the employer-employee relationship that people are paid on time and accurately. We're fixing this. I know that my colleague, Minister Foote, her deputy Marie Lemay—
12:15 p.m.
Liberal
Scott Brison Liberal Kings—Hants, NS
There was an update last week by the deputy minister at Public Services and Procurement Canada that described where it's at now. There have been a lot of additional resources applied in terms of people being brought in to address this. It's a lesson to government, both our government and the previous government. It's a lesson to any government. When you're doing enterprise-wide IT transformation, whether you're in a government or a business, it is very complex. It is fraught with challenges.
Those are not reasons not to do these things. The pay system needed to be modernized. But we would do things differently if given the opportunity. This was introduced by the previous government. We were brought in at a particular point in time. There are lessons to be learned from the implementation of the Phoenix pay system that would mean that any government in the future would do it differently.
12:15 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski
Minister, once again, thank you for coming here today and for spending a little bit more time than you'd originally budgeted for.
To the committee, as I've said before and will say again for the record, I think this is an extremely, extremely important study that we're about to commence, for no other reason than this. Again I will go back to my 12 years' experience here and say that if we can get this right—and I think, Minister, you are on the right track—it would finally, and I mean finally, after generations, give the responsibility and the authority for the expenditures of monies away from the public service and into the hands of the parliamentarians. As far as I was concerned when I was first elected, that's what we were here to do.
Once again, thank you for your efforts. We will hopefully see you once again. You said you've made about 12 appearances. Hopefully you won't mind making it a baker's dozen if we invite you back here again sometime in the near future.
Thanks once again. We will suspend.