Evidence of meeting #56 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was post.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Mike Palecek  National President, Canadian Union of Postal Workers
Geoff Bickerton  Director of Research, Canadian Union of Postal Workers
Françoise Bertrand  President, Task Force on Canada Post Corporation
Marena McLaughlin  Member, Task Force on Canada Post Corporation
Jim Hopson  Member, Task Force on Canada Post Corporation
Yaprak Baltacioglu  Secretary of the Treasury Board Secretariat, Treasury Board Secretariat
Nicholas Leswick  Assistant Deputy Minister, Economic and Fiscal Policy Branch, Department of Finance
Brian Pagan  Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management, Treasury Board Secretariat

10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

Colleagues, we have quorum and it's 10 a.m., so I'd prefer to get going on time. We have a couple of members who are not here but may be listening to statements of remembrance in the House and may be joining us later. In any event, I don't want to delay the proceedings, particularly since our witnesses arrived on time, and so we will start on time.

Mr. Palecek, welcome once again to our committee. You know the procedure, sir, fairly well. We will ask you for an opening statement. That will be followed by questions from our committee members.

With that brief introduction, sir, welcome once again, and the floor is yours.

10 a.m.

Mike Palecek National President, Canadian Union of Postal Workers

Good morning, and thank you very much for having us back to conclude our remarks here today. As you know, my name is Mike Palecek. I'm a letter carrier from Vancouver and the national president of the Canadian Union of Postal Workers.

I have with me today our director of research, Geoff Bickerton. He has been with our union since 1977, and was intimately involved even in the formation of Canada Post as a crown corporation and in every single review afterwards. I would hope that between the two of us, we can come up with some answers for whatever you ask.

As you know from our letter to the committee chair, CUPW has done a critique of the task force's discussion paper, as promised. I believe last time we were here we said we would do that and submit it to you for consideration. This document outlines our concerns about financial matters and postal banking. I would like to highlight some of our concerns and also answer any questions you might have. Of course, I won't have time to be comprehensive in this.

First are the labour costs. In one place the discussion paper states that Canada Post's productive unit of labour costs are up to 41% more than those of comparable businesses in the private sector. In another place, it states the Canada Post productive labour rate is 45% more than its competitors'. Based on information that Canada Post provided to us, the difference is nowhere near 41% or 45%. You can see this on page 2 of our critique.

I'll move on to financial performance. The task force based much of its negative projections for the future on its analysis of the past five years, but they got it wrong by lumping the results together. In 2011, they didn't look at the impact of the one-time events, such as the pay equity payment estimated to cost $250 million, or the one-time increase of $63 million in pension benefit costs. Without these one-time costs, Canada Post would have made a profit from operations, in spite of the rotating strikes and full-scale lockout in 2011, which have been estimated to have cost between $50 million and $70 million.

For 2012, the task force reported a loss, which is not true. Canada Post reported a $94-million profit in 2012, but restated it in 2013 for comparative purposes only, when the corporation introduced new accounting standards. For 2013, the task force completely ignores the huge impact of the one-time accounting changes and instead cites the financial results as evidence of long-term unsustainability. The fact is that Canada Post would have reported a $321-million net profit, had it not been for those accounting changes in 2013.

For 2014, the task force acknowledges a profit but attributes it largely to March price increases that generated $214 million in revenue. They neglect to mention the impact of the increase in the benefit-cost discount rate, which reduced benefit costs by $181 million. For 2015, the task force doesn't say much except that it was a profitable year. Canada Post, on the other hand, tried to attribute the profits in 2015 to the CMB conversion program, even though the conversions happened at the end of the year and the impact in reducing costs was minimal.

The 2015 profits were the result of an increase in parcel volumes, productivity gains, and Canada Post's ability to reduce staffing in response to lost volumes. It was also achieved despite a decrease in the benefit discount rate from 5% to 4%, which increased the benefit cost by $189 million.

For 2016, the task force predicts a loss before taxes of $63 million. They predict a loss in spite of the fact that all evidence points to another profitable year for Canada Post. Canada Post reported $45 million in profits before tax in the first six months of 2016. This represents the highest profits for the same period, since 2010, when they started reporting profits quarterly. Plus, this was all achieved in spite of Canada Post instructing large-volume mailers not to mail during June of 2016, when they drove their business away threatening a labour dispute.

The corporation has a long track record of being wrong. I would ask that you review page 6 of our critique for this.

I have just a few more observations before we move to the questions.

The task force makes only one reference to our new collective agreement. They cite a clause in the urban contract requiring that there be 493 corporate retail outlets. They see this clause as negative. We do not.

They either fail to mention or were not told by Canada Post about two very positive developments. The task force does not mention the new rules that were negotiated that will allow Canada Post to significantly increase its market share in ad mail and the parcel market, particularly by delivering parcels on evenings and weekends. Similarly, there's no mention of a new activity values in the RSMC agreement that will increase productivity.

On postal banking, in addition to the financial issues, we have critiqued the task force's observations on postal banking. We hope you will read this section with interest.

I would like to highlight two major errors right now. The task force's report says, on page 82, that only 7% of Canadians who like the idea would actually use a postal bank. According to their own polling, it's not 7% of those who support the concept, but 7% of all Canadians. Furthermore, another 22% of Canadians say they would probably use a postal bank. In short, the task force's polls suggest postal banking has huge potential, and up to 29% of the country say they would probably use it.

The second error is found on page 86, where the discussion paper states “having a government entity competing in the financial sector would contravene Canada's trade agreements with other countries”. This statement is also incorrect. A postal bank would be subject to trade agreements and would have to operate within those rules, but there is currently nothing in any trade agreement that would prevent a postal bank from actually operating.

In conclusion, we believe that the task force's paper should be disregarded, as it is biased, and based on errors, omissions, misrepresentations, and unsupported speculation.

Thank you for listening.

10:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

Thank you very much.

We will now go to our seven-minute round of questioning.

We'll start with Monsieur Ayoub.

You have the floor for seven minutes.

10:05 a.m.

Liberal

Ramez Ayoub Liberal Thérèse-De Blainville, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank our two witnesses for joining us today.

I'm happy to see you again. Since I received your brief this morning, I obviously haven't had time to review it carefully and understand all the nuances, so I won't get into a detailed discussion about your numbers.

I will say, however, that since the beginning—and I think this is still the case today—we've seen a big divide between how the facts are perceived and how they are understood, whether we are talking about the figures or studies in question. I would even say that, to some extent, it's a matter of how the reality is being perceived. I'd like to know your take on that.

Would you acknowledge that Canada Post needs to make changes in order to be viable, provide high-quality services, and ensure its future? What do you think those changes should be? If you disagree with the changes Canada Post's leadership made, what changes would you like to see brought in?

10:05 a.m.

National President, Canadian Union of Postal Workers

Mike Palecek

We would certainly recognize that the postal industry is a changing industry. We don't think it's a dying industry, but certainly some changes will have to be made. We think that Canada Post should do what other post offices around the world are doing, and have been doing for some time, which is diversifying. They should be looking at new services that they could provide that would bring in additional revenue. However, we completely reject the idea that there's a crisis at Canada Post right now. The truth is we have time to act. Canada Post has consistently been profitable. They're actually very well situated to adapt to these changes as they come.

Mr. Chopra said something yesterday that struck me as odd. He said that if the last letter were delivered without any changes to the structure now, that last letter would cost us $3 billion to deliver. That's factually incorrect. The truth of the matter is that Canada Post can adjust their staffing levels right now as volumes fluctuate. That's evidenced by the fact that over the last 10 years, the number of letter carriers has fallen by exactly the same percentage as the letter mail has declined.

10:10 a.m.

Liberal

Ramez Ayoub Liberal Thérèse-De Blainville, QC

How would you describe the relationship between your union and senior management, as far as the next steps go?

The fact that you haven't been able to find common ground and that you have disputes is nothing new. As I told Mr. Chopra yesterday, it's as though each side's perception of the situation is the polar opposite of the other's. You are both working on your respective ends but not towards the same goal. That's worrisome. You haven't been able to find a way to work together and to get a synergy going to meet a common goal that should involve everyone. I don't think things are working; nor do I think they will get better in the near future. There seems to be a communication block.

10:10 a.m.

National President, Canadian Union of Postal Workers

Mike Palecek

By the very nature of an employer-union relationship, it's necessarily an adversarial relationship in some regards. That said, over the last year as we've gone through bargaining—

10:10 a.m.

Liberal

Ramez Ayoub Liberal Thérèse-De Blainville, QC

I don't agree. I can say right away that I don't agree with that, but it's okay. I understand.

I thought it would be better to work as a team. If it's confrontational every time, we have the perfect example right now.

10:10 a.m.

National President, Canadian Union of Postal Workers

Mike Palecek

Absolutely, through that we need to look for our common ground and for common goals that we can achieve, things that we can work on and so on, but there is necessarily some element of the back and forth between labour and employer.

10:10 a.m.

Liberal

Ramez Ayoub Liberal Thérèse-De Blainville, QC

Yes, there are negotiations.

10:10 a.m.

National President, Canadian Union of Postal Workers

Mike Palecek

That's all I was referring to. It's certainly been heightened over the past few years, when all the unions made clear that we had felt quite disrespected throughout this process. Certainly, there were increased tensions around our bargaining, but we continue to meet. I met with Mr. Chopra and senior management just a couple of weeks ago.

10:10 a.m.

Liberal

Ramez Ayoub Liberal Thérèse-De Blainville, QC

Would you agree that the two sides need to sit down together and work towards finding some common ground?

That's what has to happen if any real progress is to be made in the long term, not for one, two, or three years. We don't want to see the same problems in two or three years' time. The future of bargaining and the working relationship between the parties are on the line. That's where efforts are needed.

I need to feel that both management and the union are working towards that, as opposed to sticking to their guns without understanding the other side. My impression so far—and we'll see how this translates in the report—is that you are pitted against one another and not at all on the same side. I think that's a shame. Everyone loves Canada Post. That's the beauty of the situation. We witnessed that on our trip across the country.

10:10 a.m.

National President, Canadian Union of Postal Workers

Mike Palecek

Unfortunately, we've really seen a pattern of disrespect and misrepresentation by this management team at Canada Post. We're doing what we can to overcome some of these issues that have been raised quite sharply over the last couple of years, but we can't pretend this didn't happen.

10:10 a.m.

Liberal

Ramez Ayoub Liberal Thérèse-De Blainville, QC

Was the relationship between the union and senior management better before the new leadership came on the scene in 2011?

10:10 a.m.

National President, Canadian Union of Postal Workers

Mike Palecek

I personally wasn't in the national office of the union prior to that. The CUPW certainly had a rocky relationship with management. You should perhaps check with him.

10:10 a.m.

Liberal

Ramez Ayoub Liberal Thérèse-De Blainville, QC

Mr. Bickerton was there for a long time.

10:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

A very brief answer, please.

10:10 a.m.

Geoff Bickerton Director of Research, Canadian Union of Postal Workers

Briefly, we've had good times. We've had hard times. The relationship has taken a very negative turn since 2011, to be frank.

10:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski

Thank you.

Mr. Clarke, you may go ahead for seven minutes.

10:15 a.m.

Conservative

Alupa Clarke Conservative Beauport—Limoilou, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good morning everyone.

Mr. Palecek, you are the national president of the Canadian Union of Postal Workers, are you not?

It's a pleasure to meet you. We met a great many of your members on our trip, during the committee's 22 public hearings all over the country. Your members repeatedly told us—and I believe you expressed your opinion on the subject as well—that they had absolutely no confidence in the task force's report and that, in many cases, it relied on factually incorrect information. I'm glad we have the opportunity to meet, so you can confirm or deny the statements.

Your members pointed out more than once that the task force's report was based on accounting data from Ernst & Young, which, itself, relied on information from the Conference Board. On Monday, I asked an Ernst & Young representative who appeared before the committee whether his firm's figures were based on those of the Conference Board, and he told me that that was absolutely not the case. I can't understand why, then, your members continue to level that criticism when it hasn't turned out to be true.

What are your comments on that?

10:15 a.m.

National President, Canadian Union of Postal Workers

Mike Palecek

Well, I'm not sure what you're referring to, but I would agree. The task force report was based on Ernst & Young's numbers. We don't actually have access to all that information as to what they based it on. Certainly—

10:15 a.m.

Conservative

Alupa Clarke Conservative Beauport—Limoilou, QC

Mr. Palecek, your members say that the $700-million deficit is not accurate, because Ernst & Young based their accounting study on the Conference Board's findings. That's what all your members across Canada said. However, Ernst & Young confirmed here last Monday that their numbers are not based on the Conference Board's findings.

10:15 a.m.

National President, Canadian Union of Postal Workers

Mike Palecek

I would agree with you. I don't think they were based on the—

10:15 a.m.

Conservative

Alupa Clarke Conservative Beauport—Limoilou, QC

Okay, that's interesting.

On the five-point plan, is there anything you agree with in this plan? Have you ever proposed another plan?

10:15 a.m.

National President, Canadian Union of Postal Workers

Mike Palecek

Absolutely, yes. We came up with a number of plans that we've actually put forward to Canada Post, around service expansion, around greening Canada Post, around a whole number of issues.

I believe Mr. Chopra actually pointed out yesterday that every bit of innovation they've done over the last number of years has come from us.