That's great, thanks.
Ms. Glover with Public Works, you're obviously aware of Phoenix. We spoke to whistle-blowers, and they talked about how if we had a better whistle-blower regime this wouldn't have happened. We've also heard that there's a strong belief across the board that there's a culture of intimidation, or that a fear of reprisals is very strong throughout the public service.
We had all the warning signs. We had third-party reports that there were issues with Phoenix. We had the unions coming forward. We had the committee bringing it up publicly. What is there in our culture, say within Public Works, that people weren't able to come forward? I know it's not you, but you mentioned that the deputy minister is ultimately responsible. The deputy minister—not the current one, the previous one—is also the one who signed off on the recommendation for Phoenix. You almost have the fox in charge of the henhouse in a way. In a department, how are people going to whistle-blow to the person who is ultimately responsible for that program, who also was ultimately responsible for going ahead?