Evidence of meeting #73 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was procurement.
A recording is available from Parliament.
10:10 a.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Marine and Defence Procurement, Department of Public Works and Government Services
May I answer?
Employees are encouraged to report wrongdoing when they see it. We actually have a branch that specializes in this work. It's the departmental oversight branch within my organization. They are also responsible for the controlled goods program for the integrity regime.
10:10 a.m.
Conservative
10:10 a.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Marine and Defence Procurement, Department of Public Works and Government Services
It reports to the deputy minister.
10:10 a.m.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
Okay.
Do you think it would be wise for us to do a follow-up with the people covered by the special security accountability form that they signed, just to reinforce that they are still protected under the whistle-blower act even though they've signed this rather ominous form?
If I was approached and told, “Sign this form. You can't discuss anything for life”, I hope that I would also be informed. “By the way, you're still protected if you see wrongdoing.” You've mentioned that we haven't told these people. Should we be reinforcing it?
10:15 a.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Marine and Defence Procurement, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Public servants are aware of all the laws that apply to them and that protect them. I have no opinion on the question.
10:15 a.m.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
Okay.
We've heard consistently that there's a culture of fear, a culture of intimidation—
10:15 a.m.
Liberal
Kyle Peterson Liberal Newmarket—Aurora, ON
I have a point of order. My understanding was that today's exercise was not part of the whistle-blower act study, but in fact a different study, just a briefing on the national security exemption. I don't know where Mr. McCauley is getting his information that this is part of that study. My belief is it's not.
10:15 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski
It's true, but he's connecting the NSEs with what he wants to know on the whistle-blower protection act study. It's not irrelevant.
10:15 a.m.
Liberal
Kyle Peterson Liberal Newmarket—Aurora, ON
And pleasantly, they're aligned, but he actually expressly said this is part of that study, and I don't believe it is.
10:15 a.m.
Conservative
10:15 a.m.
Liberal
Kyle Peterson Liberal Newmarket—Aurora, ON
I just wanted to make sure we were all clear. Sorry.
I was just confused; I thought maybe it was.
10:15 a.m.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
I've completely lost my train of thought. Thank you, Mr. Peterson.
10:15 a.m.
Voices
Oh, oh!
10:15 a.m.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
We've heard repeatedly from different departments a culture of fear with the PSDPA. I'm curious if that fear is being grown by anything involved with what we're discussing today with the various security...the NSEs and that.
10:15 a.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Marine and Defence Procurement, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Workplace wellness and an environment where employees can challenge and can speak their mind is hugely important to me and to our deputy minister, Marie Lemay. We take it very seriously and we encourage that throughout the procurement workforce. It's even more important now that we're modernizing procurement. I need people's innovations, I need their good ideas, and I want them to be able to tell me at all times, “This is what I think is happening on this file. This is the best way to go forward.”
We really do encourage an environment of transparency, open communication, and a challenge function.
10:15 a.m.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
Mr. Watters, I know Mr. Whalen was asking about some of the purchases that you made specifically for the leadership conference. It makes sense. The leadership conference is now a year old. Is there any information on the purchases you made? Does it ever get released later, or is it just considered abandoned until the end of time or until the next purchase is made?
I understand the purpose of not disclosing it for that specific conference, but, say we bought x amount of stuff. As Mr. Gourde was talking about with the Syrians, we bought some housing that was never used. It was just left there. Do you ever disclose afterwards, or do you try to keep it, I don't want to say covered up but...?
10:15 a.m.
Acting Chief Financial Administration Officer, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
It's not covered up. Essentially, it depends on the type of information there is. If it's classified information, obviously there are restrictions to it. If it's not classified, because sometimes something can be classified for a while after it stops being classified, so then it's opened, it's recorded in our system.
The problem is that we track those things separately in the system. Sometimes when there is information that's requested, we have to always look at it from an ATIP...to see if it's in the public interest to release it under the access to information laws.
10:15 a.m.
Conservative
10:15 a.m.
NDP
Erin Weir NDP Regina—Lewvan, SK
Do your organizations have a definition of national security that you use in deciding whether to invoke the exception?
10:15 a.m.
Assistant Director, Finance and Administration, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
In the CSIS case, we invoke NSE on every transaction, so there's no discretion applied.
10:15 a.m.
Acting Chief Financial Administration Officer, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
As I mentioned earlier, there are conditions under which we will apply it, for example, if it puts at risk our members or puts the public at risk. Some of these situations are what we ensure for consistency. I think what you're looking at is how it's applied in a consistent manner. We have every request that comes from a deputy commissioner level down to our procurement specialist. They are there to ensure that we're applying it in a consistent manner irrespective of the products we acquire.
10:15 a.m.
Director General, Procurement and Vendor Relationships, Shared Services Canada
Mr. Chair, our invocation was an omnibus invocation, but we're in constant dialogue with our security partners to do that threat assessment and ensure where we have an eye on the vulnerabilities and what we need to do.
10:15 a.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Marine and Defence Procurement, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Mr. Chair, if I may, national security today is multi-dimensional in nature. It incorporates a range of traditional and non-traditional perspectives. It's about more than military, territorial integrity and traditional concepts of national sovereignty. It's also about threats to economic security, environmental security, and human security as societies and democratic institutions become targets of threats. We need to be protected and defended. For example, governments also have to consider how to best prepare for biological weapons and their use against not just military targets. Should terrorism take the form of a health pandemic, for example, other countries would face the same situation as us, thus the need to be prepared and have ready access to medication if we need it.