Government Operations Committee on Feb. 23rd, 2017

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

—or similar, just let me finish, said it's very odd, and he's not familiar with anything like this, but you say it's very common. Can you give us examples of other projects you've done when public servants have been banned, muzzled for life to discuss...? What we're getting at, this is all about the whistle-blower and whistle-blower protection. If they're banned for life, are they still covered by whistle-blower protection? If they are, and we've been told they are, has it been communicated to these people who have been muzzled for life that they can come forward with any wrongdoing that they're finding on a procurement project?

[Lisa Campbell]

The Public Servants Disclosure Protection Act is a different matter than being read in for security reasons on a national security file. Mr. Williams, whom you described, was the assistant deputy minister, I believe, many years ago at National Defence. It's not a procurement function. PSPC is the sole purchaser of defence materiel.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

But this ban goes beyond just PSPC. It goes to DND people as well.

For the sake of argument, I work for Public Works, I signed this ban for life on discussing that. We'd been told earlier that they're still protected by the whistle-blower act. Is that correct?

[Lisa Campbell]

They are different matters. One is a statute to protect public servants—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

You're not answering my question...please.

[Lisa Campbell]

I am, sir.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

For the sake of argument, I'm one of the people covered by the non-disclosure agreement, banned for life from discussing the Super Hornet. I see some wrongdoing. We've been told they can go to the whistle-blower and be protected under the whistle-blower act. Is that your understanding?

[Lisa Campbell]

They are different matters. Being read in and being privy to national security restricted information for the officials' purposes of doing their job is a necessary part of our function—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

I understand that.

[Lisa Campbell]

—and it's time-limited and it's different from the Public Servants—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

If you're banned for life, it's really not time-limited. It's until you die. That's a rather lengthy period. Again, I have a simple question. You've signed this NDA for the Super Hornets, correct?

[Lisa Campbell]

The read-in process, yes, I signed a document. It's not an NDA.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Okay. You've signed that, and you're banned for life from discussing it. You see some wrongdoing. Do you believe that you're covered by the whistle-blower protection act to bring that out?

[Lisa Campbell]

I have signed a read-in process document, which says that certain national security information, which I had to be privy to, to do my job, I may not disclose, and that relates to the interim fighter procurement process.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

If you see some wrongdoing with the project, do you believe that you're covered by the whistle-blower protection act? This is a big concern of ours, that these public servants and their rights are protected under the whistle-blower act. From what you're saying It doesn't sound as if they are. If you see—

[Lisa Campbell]

The public service—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

If one of your people covered by this sees wrongdoing, do you believe they're aware they can come forward and report that wrongdoing under the whistle-blower protection act?

[Lisa Campbell]

The Public Servants Disclosure Protection Act applies to all public servants, regardless of the circumstances, and it does protect them, yes.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

That was a long way to get around to “yes”.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Mr. McCauley, you've got about 15 seconds.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

That's great.

This NDA or the read-in, where did the direction come from: the PMO, the minister's office, or your own direction? Was that standard procedure?

[Lisa Campbell]

The Department of National Defence, like other government organizations that deal with national security interests, will decide with highly sensitive information, who requires access, for what purposes, what their security classification is, and whether read-in—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

So does DND decide—

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

I'm afraid you're out of time, Mr. McCauley.

[Lisa Campbell]

Could you just let me finish?

—procedures are required.