Evidence of meeting #78 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was wrongdoing.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Alupa Clarke Conservative Beauport—Limoilou, QC
—would be dealt with if responsible ministerial principles were applied.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski
It's in the blues. All your comments are in the blues. All committee members can be assured of that.
Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner of Canada
That is a very good question, Mr. Clarke.
Conservative
Liberal
Nick Whalen Liberal St. John's East, NL
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Friday, could you just remind the committee of how many disclosures of wrongdoing have been brought forward through your office since its inception?
Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner of Canada
According to the information provided on February 14, it was 774 at that time.
Liberal
Nick Whalen Liberal St. John's East, NL
How many people have been fired or removed from their jobs as a result of those complaints?
Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner of Canada
We've had 13 founded case reports. The concept of wrongdoing is very broad. Sometimes it's more corporate in nature or more organizational in nature, such as a practice that may have occurred over a period of time that not a single person is responsible for. But in my most recent case report, we had a deputy minister, against whom I found a case of wrongdoing, resign during the course of the investigation.
Liberal
Nick Whalen Liberal St. John's East, NL
So there are 13 out of 774. It's really a de minimis amount, wouldn't you say?
Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner of Canada
I think that reflects the definition of “wrongdoing”. As we discussed the last time I was here, I believe my office was put in place to deal with a level of seriousness that is not otherwise being dealt with, which is reflected in the act. Many of those cases are still before another body or.... Again, as I said in my last appearance, I can't deal with a complaint against a teacher or a hospital, because of the constitutional division of powers.
Liberal
Nick Whalen Liberal St. John's East, NL
Sure.
We've heard there are no objects in the act, which makes it a bit difficult for people from other jurisdictions to appreciate what the purpose of the act should be. I feel that the purpose of the act should be to discover wrongdoing and institutional dysfunction and correct it.
How does the act allow you or other agencies of government to quickly correct and address incompetence, institutional dysfunction, wrongdoing?
Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner of Canada
I will say that section 26 of our act specifically identifies the purpose of an investigation into a disclosure of wrongdoing, and that is to bring to the attention of a chief executive the existence of wrongdoing and to make recommendations.
Liberal
Nick Whalen Liberal St. John's East, NL
Why not bring it to the RCMP, or why not bring charges, or why to the CEO and not to the regulatory agency that oversees the wrongdoing?
Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner of Canada
The definition of “wrongdoing” is so broad, there's not always an overseeing agency. We deal with everything from human behaviour and interaction to potential crime. I want to be on the record as saying that I do not have criminal jurisdiction, but I do have the ability to refer a matter to the RCMP. I have done so as recently as earlier this year, and I can't speak about it.
Liberal
Nick Whalen Liberal St. John's East, NL
Okay, so how many times has your office referred matters to the RCMP?
Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner of Canada
Without having that information, my general counsel advises it was at least four times.
Liberal
Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner of Canada
Most people who come to us don't believe that we are the police and don't ask us to intervene. We sometimes uncover something, as we recently have, that could point to what we believe to be a potential criminal activity, and we refer that either to the Attorney General's office or the appropriate police force. We have chosen in the federal system to do that to the RCMP.
Liberal
Nick Whalen Liberal St. John's East, NL
Thank you for that.
Madam Boyer, with respect to some of the complaints we've heard about there being a gatekeeper function on access to the tribunal, how does your other tribunal that you oversee work when somebody wants to appear before it? Do they have to be vetted by a separate organization?
Executive Director, Public Servants Disclosure Protection Tribunal
With tribunals, of course, it's based on their enabling legislation. It's the Competition Tribunal, so the law is completely different and the rules are completely different. Most of the applications come through the office of the commissioner of competition. We do have certain areas where industry can come to us directly; it's minimal. I would say that about 90% of the cases that come before that tribunal come through the commissioner.
Liberal
Nick Whalen Liberal St. John's East, NL
Would it be possible for your office to handle the gatekeeping function itself and receive all requests to an adjudicator or adviser without having them go through the PSIC?
Executive Director, Public Servants Disclosure Protection Tribunal
I'm sure that we would be able to apply whatever changes to the legislation that Parliament decides to give us. When the act was put into place in 2007, without knowing what would be coming before the tribunal we had a structure of about 15 FTEs. Right now it's minimal. There's me, and I'm shared with another tribunal. There's a senior legal adviser who chairs.... We're four.
Of course, that's about efficiencies.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski
I'm sorry, unless someone cedes their time to you, I'll have to go over to Mr. Clarke for five minutes.