Government Operations Committee on April 19th, 2016

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

When we say it's a five-minute round, for questions and answers.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

I want to talk to the Minister. Thank you, as well as your department, for being here.

I want to talk to you about something you touched on, and that's the main estimates and the alignment with the budget. I know that the budget in Australia will be coming in 13 days, 16 hours, 42 minutes, 46 seconds and counting, on Tuesday, May 3. They have this nice countdown here. It's great.

You talked a lot about the Australia model. Are there other jurisdictions that the committee should be looking at, other than Australia, that have this similar type of main estimates and budget alignment?

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

I appreciate the question.

I cited Ontario as another jurisdiction that has pretty good alignment in this sense. Quebec, actually, in terms of alignment of budget and the estimates process, has a better situation than we do in Canada. The C.D. Howe Institute has done a study of this, which I would commend to you. Honestly, this is something we would really like to engage this committee on.

I was at the World Economic Forum a couple of months ago, where I met with the Australian finance minister, the equivalent of the Treasury Board here. We discussed some of their issues. There's an opportunity to have bilateral discussions between you, as parliamentarians, and Australian parliamentarians, and ministers and parliamentary secretaries. I want our government and Parliament to be moving forward in unison on this, because we all have a vested interest.

Ultimately, making the system more understandable and sensible, and aligning the system, will make it easier for parliamentarians to hold governments to account. It will also make it easier for Canadians to hold government and Parliament to account, which I think is a good outcome. I think ultimately it will result in better policy and results from government, as people can hold us to account. This is one part of a more results-focused Parliament and government.

Our accountability to Canadians is going to be improved if we get this right, and I believe we can.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Mr. Chair, the last time we had a field trip, we all had hard hats. Maybe it's an opportunity for us to look at Ontario, Quebec, or Australia, to see the types of models they have.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

I've had a brief conversation with the minister on this, and I concur. If I read the committee correctly, I think there's a desire and a willingness on the part of this committee to try to do an in-depth study on better alignment of both the budget and the estimates process. There is a mechanism in place for committees to travel. Should the committee desire, at any time, to make any kind of road trip, whether it be in Canada or outside of Canada, there is a mechanism through which we can apply for the necessary funds to do so and send at least certain members of the committee, if not the entire committee.

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

Treasury Board has prepared a background paper to provide to the committee, which can help inform your deliberations as well. At Treasury Board, if we can be a resource to you, we would like to very much work closely with you on this. I think it's important work.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Minister, thank you for the kind offer. I know we will be discussing, as a committee, future business. I think, if I read the committee right, there is a willingness to try to make sure we engage in a study on this. We'll certainly take you up on your offer, I'm sure, in due course.

Mr. Drouin, you have about 45 seconds left if you have another quick comment.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Just quickly, I know that previous committees have looked at the arguments for accrual accounting and cash accounting. I know this can be a never-ending debate. Probably Yasmin would have more to say about this. Is that something we should probably loop in, or would we be trying to do too much at this point?

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

When the Australians reformed their system, it's one of the things they sought to address. They reversed some of their initial decisions to do that.

Accrual and cash accounting can coexist in reportage. This would be something I would look at, and I would recommend that you look at it. If you're going to be talking about how to reform the system, you certainly should think of it. The Australian model indicates there are some unforeseen or unintended consequences of going with one.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Now, Mr. Blaney for five minutes.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Brison, at a previous meeting, you said you were our watchdog. Since then, there have been some rather worrisome signs. During the election campaign, you committed to modest deficits.

The Minister of Finance has announced a deficit that is much higher than expected. The numbers are contradictory. Have you exaggerated your expenditures or underestimated your revenues? I asked you at our last meeting whether the plane had a pilot or the ship, a captain.

Can you assure us that you are managing taxpayer money efficiently and that you will achieve your financial objectives?

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

Thank you very much for your question.

Mr. Blaney, our government inherited a deficit from the Conservatives and very low economic growth.

During the election campaign, we presented an economic plan providing for significant investments in infrastructure, education, aboriginal communities, the middle class, job creation, and economic growth.

We believe in our plan and our approach. Mr. Poloz, the Governor of the Bank of Canada, stated recently that our investments were important for stimulating economic growth. David Dodge and Kevin Lynch, two former deputy ministers of finance, and Larry Summers, former Secretary of the Treasury in the U.S., have all commented on this.

It is an important debate. We have, nonetheless, clearly stated that we will continue making strategic investments to create jobs and help the middle class. We will indeed continue doing so.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC]

Of course, Mr. Minister, and to boost your credibility among taxpayers, it is certainly in your interest to take a fact-based approach.

As you know, the finance department has clearly stated that you took office with a budget surplus of over $1 billion. Growth is now higher than expected.

I would like to return to the expenditures that we are discussing today. You are asking us to approve supplementary estimates to welcome Syrian refugees. Could you provide a breakdown of these expenses? Will there be additional costs in welcoming the Syrian refugees? You seem to have adjusted your targets based on the number of refugees we will receive in Canada.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

You have about a minute and a half left, Minister.

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

On the budget question, I remember the presentation of the last budget by Minister Oliver in April. It was delayed until April so he could bank one-time asset sales of GM shares to create a notional surplus on the eve of an election. Also, that surplus was based on projected growth rates that were 1.1% higher than—

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC]

So we both agree it's a surplus, Minister.

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

Look, any government can use rosy growth projections to create a notional or illusory surplus. We're levelling with Canadians on this, but that's a discussion for when I see you in the gym sometime.

We are very pleased as a government, and I think all of Parliament shares our enthusiasm, for the success of the Syrian refugee initiative. This was accomplished at a cost of just over $700 million, which was actually under budget.

We have not utilized the additional reserves, the contingencies established for the purpose. In addition to the commitment made in budget 2016, the government has confirmed a new approach to the ongoing crisis in Iraq and Syria and its impact on the region.

This is fundamental to the future of Canada in terms of our ability to attract new Canadians. A lot of people say this is a great thing to do for Syrian refugees. I think it's actually a great thing to do for Canada. These Syrian refugees, in 20 or 30 years, are going to make a huge difference.

I serve on the ad hoc cabinet committee for Syrian refugees, as does Minister Monsef. She was an Afghan refugee and came here as a child. To have a former Afghan refugee sitting as a cabinet minister today makes me wonder sometimes whether, in 20 or 30 years, we might see some of these Syrian refugees sitting in the House of Commons or as members of a cabinet. I think it's an investment in the future that we all welcome.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

I believe we have time for one final intervention.

Mr. Ayoub, for five minutes.

[Ramez Ayoub, Liberal, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I did not expect to have the chance to ask questions.

Mr. Minister, we can see that the lion's share of expenditures in the budget are earmarked for seniors and health. For seniors, there is an 18% increase, primarily owing to old age security and the guaranteed income supplement. Are there any relevant statistics for the last five years?

What are the projections for the future? The budget is, of course, tabled every year, but I expect there are demographic forecasts.

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

The increase includes OAS and GIS. It's expected to be $48.4 billion in 2016-17, and that is an increase of $2.3 billion over the previous amount.

This is important to realize as well when we're talking about the main estimates and then we introduce a budget. Our budget made significant investments, for instance, in increasing the GIS for low-income seniors. A single senior on GIS will receive an additional $1,000 per year. This will have fiscal implications as well, and important ones, and it's an important investment.

Again, that is a discussion. I would like to have the budget and estimates process more closely aligned so that we could be speaking of the two in unison, because we're speaking in some cases of increases or decreases as a result of things that happened under the previous government or that don't have anything to do with what we're actually doing as a government.

The Syrian refugee question is something that in terms of estimates does relate to decisions we made as a government, or largely, in part, but a lot of these other questions relate to decisions made by the previous government. It's an important question. It's critically important to invest, particularly in our vulnerable seniors, and we will continue to do so.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

You have two minutes left.

[Ramez Ayoub, Liberal, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

The other question would be about Statistics Canada. There's an increase...with 35,000 employees.

Returning to Statistics Canada, I want to talk about something that has not been done for a very long time.

It would be interesting to see what share of the budget—$126 million is a significant increase, after all—is earmarked for the training of 35,000 new employees who will help develop the new census for Statistics Canada.

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

I don't have an answer to that question, in terms the percentage of that to be used for training, but my colleagues and I will endeavour to find out.

That's one thing. When you've been around here long enough, you actually are able to say, “I don't know the answer to that.” But we will get back to you, okay? It's an important question.

[Ramez Ayoub, Liberal, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

You'll be pleased to come back—no problem.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!