Government Operations Committee on June 15th, 2017

[Christiane Fox]

Yes, it probably would come down to departments when they make their requests. I can't speak for all departments on that particular point about private spending, about professionals outside the government doing some of their own activities, and whether or not that factors in. They factor in a number of considerations, and I would think that in certain departments that probably would be one—perhaps Immigration, CRA. I'll take that back and I'll take a look and see.

[Erin Weir, NDP, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

Okay. Thanks very much.

There's been some controversy recently about different government ministers spending a fair bit of money on photographers, producing content for social media. My sense is that wouldn't fit the current definition of “advertising”, but I'm wondering if it should or if it should be regulated in some other way.

[Louise Baird]

I would just go back to the way we define “advertising” in terms of purchased promotion in a media outlet. That's what we use as our definition.

I'm probably repeating myself a little bit, but ministers are the principal spokespersons, so certainly they're very eligible to go out and promote the work of their departments.

[Erin Weir, NDP, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

For sure, but is this perhaps another example of where digital advertising blurs the lines a bit between paid advertising and government communications?

[Louise Baird]

I feel we have a clear definition, and that's how we apply it and departments must apply that rule and adhere to that definition. In media and communications, digital is influencing communications greatly and is changing all the time, so we'll continue to monitor that.

[Erin Weir, NDP, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

Are there any other areas that you think should be included in this government advertising regime, or do you think the current definition really is accurate and the best possible?

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

A very brief response if you could, please.

[Louise Baird]

We've only been out for a year, so we want to let the process run for a little bit. We're very much looking forward to the AG's audit of the process to see if it's sufficient. We do intend to bring forward legislation to make it a permanent solution to have third party oversight, so if there are any inputs through some of those avenues, we would consider those as we draft legislation.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Thank you very much.

Our final intervention will be from Mr. Ayoub and Madam Shanahan. You can split seven minutes any way you see fit.

[Ramez Ayoub, Liberal, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

You can start. Go ahead.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

I want to continue on this, because I am very interested.

Thank you so much for your testimony this morning, all of you, because it's really clarified in our minds what is a very blurry field in communications: the distinction between paid advertising, government communications, information, and education.

To continue on the subject that Mr. Weir brought up about the disability tax credit, that's an excellent example of what you were speaking about, Ms. Fox, that there need to be complementary channels. Certainly, I think that paid advertising, well placed, is critical to bringing people's attention to a program that exists, and it's something the private sector knows how to do very well. As members of the government and public service we want to get the program out and into the right hands, and it behooves us to do that.

I would like to suggest something specific to that if I can help with your considerations. As a social worker I was working in a medical environment. I was dismayed to see how little medical and social service professionals knew about income support programs that could greatly help their patients. There's another channel: specialized targeted advertising to professionals working in those fields, that would be complementary. I can think of a whole host of programs, like the Canada learning bond which I spoke about earlier.

In getting back to the matter at hand, I would ask the ASC, how many ads have you rejected out of hand? I don't recall if that question was asked.

[Janet Feasby]

The initial—

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

I guess the graphics would have been submitted for your review. How many, would you say?

[Janet Feasby]

There are two reviews. One is at the initial stage. We get proposed ads, which may be in storyboard form or digital, and we review them. I believe there were four that we had issues with at the initial stage. They were corrected and submitted for final review, and they met the criteria.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Is that four out of the 1,800 that have been submitted to you thus far?

[Janet Feasby]

Yes.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

All right, so people are getting the message.

Thank you.

[Ramez Ayoub, Liberal, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

I will continue on the point I started.

Earlier, we talked about the idea of informing people about programs through targeted communication activities. We talked about deciding whether to use internal resources or advertising agencies. How do you view your role?

You have surely thought about that at some point. You have made recommendations and suggestions over the years, regardless of the government in place. You told yourself that it was worthwhile to use internal resources or that it was rather worthwhile to use external expertise, as it may provide a more targeted service.

To an extent, can't savings be made by using internal expertise? What is your opinion on that?

[Christiane Fox]

That is an excellent question. Clearly, any manager of an organization that is involved in communications has an interest in their team being able to explore their creative side and take action.

It should be noted that not all departments have the same capacities. Very small departments have very small communications units and may turn to private agencies. Sometimes, in the case of large advertising campaigns, it is better to use a firm outside the government to get advice.

We also try to use the creativity of our own employees. Sometimes, we will try to work with other departments. If there is talent at Canadian Heritage and an advertising must be produced for Employment and Social Development Canada, there may be some synergy between those two teams where talent and creativity will be used.

[Ramez Ayoub, Liberal, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Has a suggestion been made to bring in outside expertise to be able to do this within government?

[Christiane Fox]

I think that internal resources have sometimes been used instead of outside organizations. For a particular campaign, one advertising was done internally and another one externally. It is sometimes complementary and sometimes separate.

I would say that the capacity is not the same everywhere. However, we are increasingly trying to explore.

There are also cases where first drafts are done internally, and then external resources are used. Part of the work is done internally to save some money.

[Ramez Ayoub, Liberal, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

You say that the capacity is not the same everywhere. Should we expect it to be evenly distributed? I don't think so.

[Christiane Fox]

No, I don't think we would want that to be the case.

[Ramez Ayoub, Liberal, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

That would mean centralization.

[Christiane Fox]

When it comes to departments, this doesn't really need to be centralized to a point where everyone is in the same place. We can also have something of an expertise network that includes a number of departments that are working together in order to create internal capacity. It is not necessarily everywhere.