Government Operations Committee on June 15th, 2017

[Louise Baird]

Yes, absolutely it is.

[Erin Weir, NDP, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

There was a bit of a controversy about a year ago with ads from Destination Canada featuring the Prime Minister.

[Louise Baird]

If I recall correctly—I might defer to my PCO colleagues—there were some questions about a video. I think it's important to make the distinction, as I think we were trying to do a little earlier, between what's advertising and what's not advertising. That specific criteria in terms of using a name or the image of a minister is specific to advertising. Ministers, as the principal spokespersons for their departments, are certainly able to go out and speak on behalf of their departments, so a video is not advertising. It still obviously has to be governed by the non-partisan elements, but the one criteria you speak to is specific to advertising—paid placement.

[Erin Weir, NDP, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

I guess this gets into an issue that Mr. Whalen was also trying to explore about whether these rules apply to government websites, or perhaps videos, in this case, that might not technically be considered advertising but are being advertised through this hugely increased spending on digital promotion.

[Louise Baird]

Yes, I guess it's.... I mean, in the terminology for us, advertising means a very specific thing in terms of purchasing space in a media outlet. Traditionally, you think of placement in The Globe and Mail or Le Droit, and you talk about billboards outside, radio, and TV, and now, obviously, social media placement. A video that is produced and put on our departmental website, we don't consider advertising. It's not considered advertising under the policy—

[Erin Weir, NDP, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

Yes, I think it clearly is much more straightforward for that billboard or a newspaper ad that's a stand-alone thing. It does seem to be a little more complicated in the digital universe.

When Mr. Whalen initially asked about this, the answer I heard was that, yes, these rules do apply to government websites. It sounds like they don't, or maybe they can't, in the case of prohibiting the name, voice, and image of a minister.

[Louise Baird]

All government communications, including when a minister is speaking or is in a video, are covered by the non-partisan definition. There is one criteria in the non-partisan definition that is specific to advertising, and that's the one you're referring to.

[Erin Weir, NDP, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

Okay. It applies, but with that exception. I appreciate the explanation on that.

Mr. Saint-Pierre, you talked about the process that Finance Canada would go through to get advertising approved. That caught my attention, because our analysts flagged the fact that Advertising Standards Canada, on its website, had suggested that the advertising for the last federal budget was partisan. I'm wondering if representatives from ASC could comment on that.

[Louise Baird]

I'm not sure that they would be aware.

[Jani Yates]

I'm not sure what you're referring to.

[Louise Baird]

I am, because it was posted on our website. That was just an error. We discovered it recently. The campaign was deemed non-partisan, and on the English side of the site, it did say “non-partisan”. It was a human error where it was written as “partisan”. That has since been corrected.

[Erin Weir, NDP, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

Okay. It was just a mistake on the website.

[Louise Baird]

It was just a human error, yes.

[Erin Weir, NDP, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

Thanks for clarifying that.

I want to ask about some recent academic publications in this area. I don't know if people are familiar with an article in Policy Options back in April of this year by Professor Marland, from Memorial University. The title of it is, “Government communications under Trudeau”. The subtitle reads, “Just like their predecessors, the Liberals are using campaign-style tools for government communications. Much is still controlled through the PMO and PCO.” This article was a synopsis of a more academic piece in Canadian Public Policy.

I don't want to make people comment on something they haven't looked at, but if anyone did have a chance to look at that publication, I'd be interested in any comments.

[Christiane Fox]

I saw that publication. It's important to note that PCO's role in government communications is that coordination role. That can be to find synergies in a system that may not be obvious to departments that are working independently of each other.

A certain centralization occurs because of the coordination role we play. Another example is when we go out and do call-outs with public opinion research; it's important that we don't duplicate in the system. If it is flagged to PCO through the checks and balances system, that allows us to say to departments, “You're doing this on public opinion research, and Immigration is doing that. Maybe there's a way we can work together to improve cost-effectiveness, collaboration, and information sharing.”

The fact that PCO is involved in government communication is the role that we play. It allows for more organized communications across government, and that is a big part of what we do. The system works when all the pieces work, when departments are sharing information with each other, with us, with the minister's office, and with the Prime Minister's Office through PCO. That is how the system can be effective, and how we can work better together and less in silos.

[Erin Weir, NDP, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

I don't want to put words in your mouth, but is your response essentially that Professor Marland's findings are correct, but that this is the legitimate role of PCO?

[Christiane Fox]

I'm not going to comment on his findings. This is one article, and he may have years of research that I have not been exposed to.

[Erin Weir, NDP, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

Okay. I'm just asking about one article.

Does anyone else wish to comment?

No problem.

I want to ask about another one of the non-partisan—

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Mr. Weir, you only have about 15 seconds. Do you want to hold your comments until the next round?

[Erin Weir, NDP, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

I can leave it to a subsequent round, and just say thanks.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Thank you.

Mr. Peterson, for seven minutes, please.

[Kyle Peterson, Liberal, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you, everyone, for your informative presentations this morning.

I just want to clarify the definition of “paid advertising”. When you say paid advertising, my interpretation is that the Government of Canada is paying to place an ad in some media. It has nothing to do with the production of the creative content or anything like that, so there would be many digital media that wouldn't be paid advertising, and therefore not subject to some of the analysis.

[Louise Baird]

That's correct. If it would be useful, I'd be happy to read the definition from the policy.

[Kyle Peterson, Liberal, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Yes, then we can get it on the record too.

[Louise Baird]

It reads:

Government of Canada advertising is defined as any message conveyed in Canada or abroad and paid for by the government for placement in media, including but not limited to newspapers, television, radio, cinema, billboards and other out-of-home media, mobile devices, the Internet, and any other digital medium.