Government Operations Committee on May 11th, 2020

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

As I said, we were advised that under a broad interpretation of the initial CERB legislation, we have the authority to.... You're talking specifically about putting in the capability for CERB recipients to earn $1,000, I assume. With a broad interpretation of the act, we were given the advice that it was possible to do this, and that is the course we took, quite frankly, to respond to what we were being asked to do by other parties, and to give more Canadians access to the benefit.

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

That is the story, but the question is, will you be able to table that power that you've given yourself with the committee, yes or no?

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

I'm in the position of advising the committee that I basically made the decision that a broad interpretation of this law allows us to create a threshold of income under which Canadians can still receive the benefit. As I've said in the past—

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

Sorry, Minister, but my time is very limited here. It's a straightforward question. Please, will you be able to table this power that you gave yourself with the committee, yes or no?

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

Are you looking to find out the particular section of the act under which we exercise the authority?

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

Well, I'm reading from your speech, Minister, and going from what you said. I'm not making up any stories here. I'm just going from what you said.

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

Right. There is regulatory authority in the first CERB legislation that allows the minister to create a class of income under which people can still receive the CERB. It was under that particular section of the act that a broad interpretation allowed us—

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

Minister, I'm not asking about the shape of the oranges. All I'm saying is that the question is very straightforward. Would you be able to provide that authority that you gave yourself to the committee, or table it? I think we have the right to ask that, and I think we deserve an answer.

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

Sir, I apologize. I'm not trying to evade; I'm trying to explain the authority under which we took the decision to create an income threshold of $1,000 for the CERB. I've also committed publicly that I am prepared for the purpose of certainty at the first possible opportunity to legislate that threshold, if that makes everyone more comfortable. It was a decision that I took based on a broad interpretation—

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

That's no answer, Minister.

How much time do I have, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

You have less than 30 seconds.

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

Thirty seconds....

Sorry, Minister, but that is not an answer. I was expecting an answer, and you've been trying to describe what you have said. It's clear what you said. I was expecting an answer, and we deserve an answer from you. Unfortunately, we did not get it. I hope you will reconsider and provide what we have asked for down the road.

Thank you for now.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Thank you.

We will go to Mr. MacKinnon for four minutes, please.

[Steven MacKinnon, Liberal, Gatineau, QC]

I'm going to hit the toggle.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Madam Minister, thank you very much.

I think we're running out of time. We could use a lot more time. I wanted to give you an opportunity to tell us about this emergency benefit that was provided in a hurry. It was quite a feat; we've seen a lot of comments about it in the media.

Could you tell us what you thought of the choice between using the employment insurance system or creating a parallel system?

It allowed you to put much-needed money into the hands of Canadians very quickly at the outset of this crisis.

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

In mid-March, two things were happening at the same time. The first was that we were getting an unprecedented level of EI applications. Very quickly, within days, it became apparent that our EI system couldn't respond as nimbly as we needed it to. People would have to wait 12 to 18 months if we were processing millions and millions of EI claims. At the same time, we recognized that there were a lot of people who weren't falling within the EI system whom we needed to help.

Our initial solution was the creation of two new benefits that would parallel the EI regular benefits and EI sickness benefits. What then happened, again within a day or two, was that we realized that having four benefits out there was proving difficult and complicated for Canadians. With those two things happening at the same time, we got together and said that we needed to do something drastic, something different, outside of EI. We needed one benefit for everyone. We couldn't spend our time, and Canadians didn't need us to spend our time, trying to explain which stream.

We basically pivoted, within probably 48 hours, from announcing those two first benefits to consolidating into one benefit all four streams: people who are EI-eligible and EI sickness-eligible, and the same two for non-EI people. We worked very quickly to find a solution within our existing systems. We found CRA and Service Canada to be the solution to that, because of their proven track records in delivering for Canadians, and Canadians' trust, particularly in CRA. They get their GST, their tax refund, and their Canada child benefit, so they're used to getting payments from CRA.

We knew that we had to automate. We knew it had to be a flat payment; that's what the system would allow us to do. Within probably a week of the initial consolidation conversations, we had figured out the solution, designed the system, put legislation in front of Parliament and received royal assent.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Thank you very much.

Colleagues, it is now 4 p.m. However, I would very much like to complete our entire round. We have two more interventions: one from Mr. Barsalou-Duval and one from Mr. Green, two minutes each.

Minister, I hope you can stick around for another four minutes.

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

I sure can. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Thank you.

We can just let the technicians know that we will be going slightly over time.

Now we'll go to Monsieur Barsalou-Duval for two minutes, please.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

My question is for the minister, and it concerns my constituency office, but I am sure it is a case like many others. Citizens often call constituency offices for help with the Canada emergency benefit or employment insurance. Most of the time they do so as a last resort. Calling their MP's office is not their first instinct. Unfortunately, when constituency office employees want to help citizens, they have to wait two days before they get a call back from a Service Canada employee. That is still quite a long time. The files are piling up. It takes time.

In the case of CERB, it's even worse, because there is no dedicated line for constituency offices. So it's impossible for us to get in touch with someone to help our constituents.

What does the government intend to do to solve this problem?

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

As I said before, it has been very challenging for Service Canada personnel to respond in a timely manner. As Cliff said, we've tried to automate the response system as much as possible to get people the information without a human intervention.

I completely appreciate that it is not satisfactory. We are pulling out all the stops to have as many people as possible answering the phones and to have as much information as possible available on the web for people to have so they can avoid calling in. We're looking at any solutions.

Any solutions you have, we would be open to, but at the end of the day, with eight million people having applied and millions more with questions, it is an exercise of patience and, admittedly, frustration, which we are working really hard every day to address.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Thank you very much.

Our final two-minute intervention will be from Mr. Green, please.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you very much.

Part 18 of Bill C-13 amended the Employment Insurance Act to allow the Minister of Employment and Social Development, with the consent of the Minister of Finance, to make interim orders to mitigate the economic effects of COVID-19 until September 30. Through these orders, you are able to adapt existing provisions and add provisions for new benefits to the act.

What amendments have been made to date to the Employment Insurance Act to mitigate the economic effects of COVID-19? How many Canadians have benefited?

[Carla Qualtrough, Liberal, Delta, BC]

That's a really important question. Mr. Chair, I'm happy to give a thorough answer to it in writing, just because I don't want to miss any.

With this legislation, whatever we want to do on the CERB side, we want to do on the EI side. If we want to allow people to earn $1,000, we have to make changes to both the CERB legislation and to existing EI systems. We want to allow seasonal workers and EI exhaustees to access the CERB. We basically have to make parallel changes along the CERB stream and the EI stream.

Graham, do you have a list with you? I don't want to miss any, but as I said, I'd almost feel more comfortable giving you this in writing to make sure I haven't missed any.

[Graham Flack]

There are four interim orders published under the regulatory authority, and we will forward those to the committee. They cover, for example, seasonal workers and [Technical difficulty—Editor].

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Okay, thank you.

I appreciate, Mr. Chair, your making that exception for us.