Government Operations Committee on July 23rd, 2020

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Great.

I'll switch gears really quickly. On June 9 the PSPC minister told the committee that PSPC also offers procurement assistance to individual health care centres. How many health care centres has PSPC helped directly so far? Has this number evolved over the course of the pandemic? In what ways have we helped out?

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

I'll have to ask that those answers be delivered in writing—again, as quickly as possible—to our clerk.

Thank you for those questions.

We will now go to Madame Vignola.

You have five minutes.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you.

I'm going to follow up on Mr. Kusmierczyk's question.

How many individual health care centres received assistance, and how were they helped?

[Bill Matthews]

I'll start with the second part of the question, about how they were helped. The “how" is largely around logistics. We'd heard from a number of organizations, especially early on, that they were having difficulty getting their orders out of China. They were having a hard time arranging transportation, either at all or at a cost that they couldn't afford, frankly. Our assistance was largely through logistics out of China. It's difficult to say how many, because some of the ones we were helping were conglomerates in long-term care facilities, etc. Where we had extra space on a plane that was coming over, we were able to squeeze some additional PPE onto the plane to help out those types of organizations. The primary answer is logistics. I cannot answer how many, because some of them were ordering in a group.

The second way I should highlight is that there were a few who were having trouble just finding suppliers, or who were wanting advice on how to procure and contract. We were able to put them in touch with some of our supply chains and some of our logistics folks just to give some advice.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Were they public or private health care centres?

[Bill Matthews]

We were in touch with a mix. On the long-term care facilities I mentioned, those would have been a conglomerate of private. We also heard, though, from some hospitals and others looking for assistance as well. It was a mix.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Very well.

By helping the health care centres who sought procurement assistance, you were interfering in provincial affairs, were you not? Shouldn't the provinces have been the ones helping, not PSPC?

[Bill Matthews]

When it comes to the question of health, this was early days. There was a struggle around understanding the logistics and getting supply. I think organizations like this were in touch with multiple levels of government. We were collaborating with the Quebec government on logistics as well. In terms of everything I said about helping out with logistics earlier, and finding space on planes, the federal government did the same thing with the Quebec government. I think you were seeing engagement across all levels of government.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you. That's the reassurance I was looking for.

I'd like to come back to the COVID-19 supply council, whose membership includes individuals from the private sector, as you mentioned.

How do you make sure members don't have any conflicts of interest related to the council's work? Are the members there for the right reasons, meaning, not for monetary or personal gain? What's the process to make sure of that?

[Bill Matthews]

Thank you for your question. I'm going to ask Mr. Vandergrift to answer.

[Michael Vandergrift]

All members of the committee had to declare their conflicts of interest beforehand. They are also required to recuse from a meeting if they have a conflict with any element of it. To be clear, as the minister has indicated as well, the committee is not talking about individual procurements or individual contracts. It's much more of a strategy conversation in terms of what is happening out on the supply chains and out in the private and public sectors in terms of access to supplies. However, there are provisions to identify conflicts and to recuse should conflicts exist.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Did anyone recuse themselves because of a conflict of interest? As we've seen recently, people don't always do so when they should.

[Michael Vandergrift]

No, no one has recused themselves in any of the meetings thus far.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Very good. Thank you.

With the worldwide demand for personal protective equipment, prices rose significantly between March and June. Are prices still on the rise, or have they stabilized or dropped, even?

[Bill Matthews]

It depends on the category of goods. They're certainly nowhere near what they were before COVID. They're still elevated above that. Some have come down a little bit. The volatility is a bit less, but on the whole still much higher than they were pre-COVID.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

We'll go to Mr. Green for five minutes.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I'm picking up where I left off, calling for a more integrated approach between the Public Health Agency of Canada and Public Services and Procurement Canada. Acknowledging what I feel to be some missteps early on with the national emergency stockpile and the roll out, what lessons have you learned? How are you using whatever innovation you've created over the last four months to plan for the future?

[Bill Matthews]

I'd focus in on logistics, because that's really where the most important hand-off occurs between PSPC and PHAC. Understanding that the eventual clients of the NESS are the provinces and territories, we are looking at more streamlined logistics so that, for some goods, can we bypass NESS altogether? Can we go right from ordering, if we order on behalf of a province, and ship directly to a province or territory? For some goods, should it go through the NESS, as it always has? We're looking at more streamlined logistics, and it depends on the category.

There's a lot more discussion around sharing of information and stockpiles, and where the greatest need is in terms of orders, and where it is best to collaborate on orders. That would be the other lesson that we share. There are also lessons for us around diversity of supply chains, and whether we can do more to better diversify our supply chains.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

As it relates to this integrated approach that we keep hearing about, understanding that the NESS has a long history going back to the 1950s, and then of course the resurgence of H1N1 and the first round of SARS, as it relates to the advanced treatment centres, are you familiar in terms of the supply of the units of advanced treatment centres?

[Bill Matthews]

Where the member is heading with this question, Mr. Chair, is probably a better question for the Public Health Agency. I'm not familiar enough to answer your question.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I'll put it to you this way. Again, this is part of the problem of not having an integrated approach in my opinion.

If the person responsible for procurement doesn't know exactly what the Public Health Agency wants, we have these gaps, and I'll share this with you. The advanced treatment centres are essentially field hospitals that are to be deployed in times of emergencies. I'm to understand that the NESS ought to have had some of those.

Do we know if those have been deployed in remote areas, in indigenous communities and territories? If you don't have that information, and knowing that we haven't had an adequate response in remote communities, has there been planning or orders placed for the future acquiring of these advanced treatment centres, so that we can deploy for future pandemics?

[Bill Matthews]

I actually do understand what the member is talking about. I just used a different term in my head. We have mobile respiratory care units. That is what we used to call them, and we've designed two models. One is more temporary, and easier to stand up and take down, and another is more permanent. We are looking at piloting those. We haven't deployed them, but we're actually well along with the design of two different types, and obviously, working with the provinces and territories on what those designs should look like.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I will have you note that on the NESS website there is reference to these being part of the stockpile and their background. Again, I feel like there's a responsibility and a role to be played through public services to take a more forward position on the acquisition of critical supplies, knowing the abject failure of the Public Health Agency of Canada to keep the adequate supplies in place leading into this pandemic.

What comment do you have on our ability to respond to future waves, knowing that we're in this hypercompetitive environment? Are you setting aside parts of your order for future emergency stockpiles? Are there conversations taking place to restore the national emergency strategic stockpile to the adequate level it was prior to the previous government throwing it all away?

[Bill Matthews]

In terms of the ordering we're doing now and, more importantly, the receipt of goods that is happening now and in the coming months, that's all about the second wave. That's why we're also getting additional space for the NESS.

In terms of the policy questions around the size of the NESS, etc., that's not for me to speak to.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Thank you very much.

We'll now go to the second round of four-minute interventions, starting with Mrs. Block.